Did the Flood really happen?

Especially when it seems to ignore a preponderance of evidence for an old earth...

This should have it's own thread

Yet only in rare places (tar pits for example) do we see jumbled piles of fossils. Most are very much alone and random. Rarely is cause of death drowning. Paleontologists dig for days searching for fossils. That, imho, is not an "enormous abundance of fossils" but rather a small representation of the life that used to exist. What ever is "intuitively obvious" to one person is not necessarily so to another -- it depends on their level of understanding.For instance it is intuitively obvious to me that the earth is very very old, much older than all the YEC models combined, because of the evidence of tree rings, varves, ice layers, etc. and the radiometric evidence showing an age over 4.5 billion years. Obvious because there is no other possible explanation except that everything is all illusion. As you do for the tree rings. When you keep putting the evidence of age in the "column for the ToE" you should at some point consider that it is "intuitively obvious" that the evidence points to old age. What Walther's Law shows is long periods of time for the different sediments to accumulate, as each of the sedimentation regimes need to develop, including the layers with evidence of marine life in mature developments, generation upon generation. It also shows a period of dry land in the middle of the canyon layers, which is also evidenced by unconformities in the layer surfaces (where erosion removed material)Here it is again:

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Message 69: Sorted into different layers of sediment according to Walther's Law, with different coarseness of the sediments and with different fossils in the layers.

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Sorted in a way that flood waters do not sort. We've been through this before Faith. Again and again you cherry pick what you think is evidence of a flood and ignore the evidence that contradicts it.

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When you have fine grain sediment covered by coarse grain sediments you have an example of long time deposition with a regression (sea level drop), and a pattern that does not happen from sediment falling out of suspension in a mud laden flood. In such cases the larger, heavier grains settle first and the finest grains (silts and clays) settle last, because the rate of settling is related to the size of the particles.

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and Message 40 on the Depositional Models of Sea Transgressions/Regressions - Walther's Law thread

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This is what I get (using your list) as a simple\simplistic application of the model to the Grand Canyon rocks:

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[color=tan]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan]......[color=black] Kaibab/limestone [/color]......[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown]...[color=white] Toroweap/gypsum/shale [/color]....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[color=black] Coconino/sandstone [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].......[color=black] Hermit/shale [/color].........[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange]....[color=black] Esplanade/sandstone [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange]....[color=black] Wescogame/sandstone [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[color=black] Mankacha/limestone [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan]....[color=black] Watahomigi/limestone [/color]....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[color=black] Redwall/limestone [/color]......[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink]...[color=black] Temple Butte/limestone [/color]...[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].......[color=black] Muav/limestone [/color].......[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[color=white] Bright Angel/Shale [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[color=black] Tapeats/Sandstone [/color]......[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray][color=black]Vishnu/Zoroaster/Unconformity [/color][/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor]
[/color]

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Now you might get a slightly different arrangement depending on how you classify some of the layer rocks (sandy limestone for instance), but you should get the general idea: when the sand is being deposited for the sandstone layers there is also mud, carbonate and ooze being deposited somewhere else at the same time.

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This can, of course be tested.

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The gray layers are dry air deposits (sand dunes etc). The Carbonate and the Coccolith/Foram Ooze layers are deposits from generations of tiny marine organisms living and reproducing and dying.What this shows is a long period of transgression from the Vishnu/Zoroaster/Unconformity to the redwall/limestone and Temple Butte/limestone layers and then a long period of regression to the Coconino/sandstone dry air layer, followed by another period of transgression to the Kaibab/limestone layer, which is topped by an erosional unconformity. (Note - The Hermit/shale layer could be dry air or brown like the other shale layers, as this was a "quick and dirty" analysis). Only when you ignore the time-scale that is involved for each of these depositional regimes to mature and deposit the amounts of sediments in the layers, and the evidence of dry air depositions and erosion unconformities.Remember that the radiometric evidence from the Grand Canyon shows it developed from west to east by erosion over several million years (see Age of Grand Canyon and Cave Speleothems ) Of course, because that is the proper application of Walther's Law. Those examples have developed over many years and multi-generations of marine life developments, not from a single year long event.You can't use evidence of long term depositions to represent short term events.Enjoy

Which of course intuitively would also include the obvious physical reality that the bible does not give an actual calendar time frame, and that the YEC age of the earth is a human invention/interpretation/construction made long after the bible was assembled from scattered documents.Enjoy

Except that it relies on assumptions that have made it difficult to reproduce, several attempts ending up with a wide variety of ages.

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HOW TO CALCULATE BIBLICAL TIME

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One of the biggest problems facing any student of the bible, especially one who is interested in the chronology of it, that is, the way time is computed, and arranging historical events in order, is the problem of how to calculate biblical time. Biblical chronology has been investigated for centuries by many different people, and these so called experts do not agree with each other. Many have used historical data and added it to the biblical data, even in some cases giving the historical evidence precedence over what is written in scripture. Biblical chronology is a very complicated subject with very many problems to overcome, and this bible study is not attempting to establish a chronology of the bible. This is a bible study which explains how to calculate biblical time, and has been done only by looking only at biblical examples. It is important to understand because it affects how people understand the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. For centuries scholars and others have recognised the bible uses what is called inclusive reckoning when calculating time. However, it was not always used, there are many places which use a method which we have called righteous reckoning, and understanding where and when and each of these methods was used is what this bible study investigates.

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In other words, picking and choosing different methods to arrive at a date ... based on interpretations and opinions ...and

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How Old is the Earth According to the Bible and Science?

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The age of the earth has been a topic of debate among Christians over the last two centuries. Several Christian ministries promote the idea that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, which they say comes from the Bible. In reality, the Bible makes no claim as to the age of the earth, although it does establish a minimum age. This page examines some of the history of the controversy”what the Bible actually says and does not say”and the scientific evidence surrounding the age of the earth.

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History of the age of the earth

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As indicated earlier, the Bible does not fix the age of the earth, contrary to the claims of Answers in Genesis.1 Historically, their claim comes from the work of James Ussher, Bishop in the Church of Ireland, from 1625 to 1656. Archbishop Ussher took the genealogies of Genesis, assuming they were complete, and calculated all the years to arrive at a date for the creation of the earth on Sunday, October 23, 4004 B.C.2 Of course, even assuming the method was valid, such an exact date is not possible from the genealogies of the Bible (Ussher assumed all the years the patriarchs lived were exactly 365.25 days long and that they all died the day before their next birthday). There are a number of other assumptions implicit in the calculation. The first, and foremost, assumption is that the genealogies of Genesis are complete, from father to son throughout the entire course of human existence. The second assumption is that the Genesis creation "days" were exactly 24-hours in length. It turns out that both assumptions are false.

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Incomplete genealogies

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Although Archbishop Ussher assumed the Genesis genealogies were complete, it is clear from the rest of the Bible that those genealogies were telescoped (some names were left out for the sake of brevity), which is common in biblical genealogies but rare in modern genealogies. Similarly, the key genealogical terms (such as "son" and "father") have much broader meanings in Hebrew than their corresponding English words. The Hebrew word translated "son" can also have the meaning of "grandson," "great grandson," "descendant," etc.3 Likewise, the Hebrew word translated "father" can mean "grandfather," "great grandfather," "ancestor," etc.4 An accurate understanding of biblical genealogies is difficult, yet it is important for the understanding of Scripture. Having a proper understanding of biblical genealogies is a prerequisite to attempting to address the Genesis genealogies. By cross referencing the biblical genealogies with other events dated in the Bible, one can find instances where numerous genealogies were telescoped, resulting in the exclusion of numerous generations of individuals. When examining individual genealogies, one can find examples where individuals are excluded or added to the lists found in Genesis. The fact that the genealogies of the Bible are given symmetrically (where the numbers of generations in each group are identical) lends credence to the argument that they are representative of generations found throughout human history. More information about the biblical genealogies can be found in our article, The Genesis Genealogies: Are They Complete?

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Age of humanity

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From a scientific standpoint, I would place the creation of Adam as the first modern human (Homo sapiens sapiens), corresponding with the explosion of sophisticated tool making, art, and religious worship in Europe, about 50,000 years ago.15 I do not believe that Adam was a Neanderthal, Homo erectus, or other hominid species found in the fossil record, but a fully modern, spiritual human being.

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Summary of biblical evidence

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Contrary to the calculation of Archbishop Ussher, it seems that the biblical genealogies are telescoped, representing only a small percentage of the actual human generations. Therefore, the time that humanity has existed on earth is in the tens of thousands of years rather than thousands of years. However, humanity was the very last of God's creations, on the sixth days. The days of creation can be shown to be longer than ordinary calendar days, with at least two of the days being years long or longer (in addition to the seventh day, which is a minimum of thousands of years long). So, although the Bible may give us an approximate date for the creation of human beings, we can only guess at how long the other creation "days" are. However, God has given us another "book" that testifies to His power and creative ability”none other than the creation itself. The Bible explicitly tells us that God's creation is a reliable witness for the truth about God's power and righteousness. The Bible also says that one can see the truth about God from His creation, so that unbelievers are "without excuse" in denying God's "eternal power and divine nature."16 So, the Bible says that we can learn about God from His creation. Let's do that!

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So it seems to me like both articles have equally valid reasoning resulting in "very reliable" time frames that are very different from each other, but using the same "evidence" ...Enjoy

Spread out over 3.5 billion years of life on earth, is one fossil species every 14,000 years. On average. That is rare to me. If there were 100 fossils of each species that would still be one every 140 years. Rare.+ Marine fossils are a different matter with populations in the thousands for mature marine ecologies buried gradually by sediments and the continued growth of marine organisms on the ocean floors, generations covering generations, as seen in the fossils on - and in - mountain tops. As I said, tar pits for example, but most are not. And that makes individual +land based organism/+ fossils even rarer. Which is a record in time and space of the evolution of life, the temporal-spacial matrix, showing parent/daughter populations nearby in time and location, and not spread out all over the face of the earth.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : +

There is disagreement when looking at thousands of years.

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HOW TO CALCULATE BIBLICAL TIME

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... Biblical chronology has been investigated for centuries by many different people, and these so called experts do not agree with each other. ...

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Note the implication that the author is the only real 'expert' ... instead of just one more of many so called experts. How does one know which so called expert to believe?

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How Old is the Earth According to the Bible and Science?

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Incomplete genealogies

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Although Archbishop Ussher assumed the Genesis genealogies were complete, it is clear from the rest of the Bible that those genealogies were telescoped (some names were left out for the sake of brevity), which is common in biblical genealogies but rare in modern genealogies. ...

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Even assuming that Ussher's genealogies were complete you have assumptions on the lengths of lives lived and how they overlapped, giving a wide range of results.Assumptions and opinions at odds with different "so called experts" ... still not what I call "a very reliable time frame."Enjoy

Science can only uncover the physical reality of the actual creation ... if the bible is true.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : .

Correct me if I'm wrong (geology not my strong suit) but this column is specific to an area, they can be different in different places, and they could include all the rock layers down to molten core.

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A stratigraphic column is a representation used in geology and its subfield of stratigraphy to describe the vertical location of rock units in a particular area. A typical stratigraphic column shows a sequence of sedimentary rocks, with the oldest rocks on the bottom and the youngest on top.

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In areas that are more geologically complex, such as those that contain intrusive rocks, faults, and/or metamorphism, stratigraphic columns can still indicate the relative locations of these units with respect to one another. However, in these cases, the stratigraphic column must either be a structural column, in which the units are stacked with respect to how they are observed in the field to have been moved by the faults, or a time column, in which the units are stacked in the order in which they were formed.

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Stratigraphy is a branch of geology that concerns the order and relative position of geologic strata and their relationship to the geologic time scale. The relative time sequencing requires the analysis of the order and position of layers of archaeological remains and the structure of a particular set of strata.

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Stratigraphic column of the Grand Canyon, Arizona, United States. ​ By http://www.nature.nps.gov/geology/parks/grca/age/image_popup/yardstickstratcolumn.png, Public Domain, https://www.evcforum.net/PresentHTML.php?control=html&s= dbcodes&title=dBCodesttps://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=3696938

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The columns can include igneous and metamorphic rocks, however, sedimentary rocks are important geologically because of Classical Laws of Geology and how they relate to the accumulation of sediments and the formation of sedimentary environments. Lithology is a study of bedrock that occurs at a specific location. The strata may contain fossils which aid in determining how old they are and geologist's understanding of sequence and timing. Geologists group together similar lithologies, and call these larger sedimentary sequence formations.

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Enjoy

ermmm ...... he sky is blue because the atmosphere absorbs the blue wavelengths and then re-emits them (photon in, photon out ... in random direction). It doesn't do this with other frequencies, so their light (photons) comes to us directly from the sun, not spread over the sky.Enjoy

Some public computers have filters to block certain websites so that undesirable sites cannot be accessed. You may have run into that.FYI I use two free programs on my computer:1. Spywareblaster -- free download HEREYou can do "manual" and periodically (example first of the month) check for updates to download and activate, or you can pay a small fee and have automatic updates. I do the manual downloads (cause I'm a cheap bastid)If you do a lot of cruising on the internet, some webpages you visit will leave trojans to gather information about your uses/preferences. This is "malware" and they are blocked by this program. They keep adding new ones so updates are necessary.2. Glary Registry Repair -- free download HEREYou can do a manual scan of the registry files and then repair any defects that occur. Again once a month is more than adequate. This helps the computer run smoother and faster. The registry files tell the computer where the program files are and how they are organized.ANDAnd then once a year or so you should defrag your hard-drive so that it resorts the bits and pieces on the hard drive so that they are near each other. If you create and delete a lot of files the computer ends up putting them in bits and pieces where there are empty spaces on the disk. The more fragmented your disk is the slower it operates.Happy cruising.

We also have cores from Lake Suigetsu and Cariaco Basin showing the annual varves in each location. These layers show the annual accumulation of the geological column in those locations. For example: This shows the geological column growing year after year with sediment and foraminifera shell deposit extending to 12,724 BCE. (The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1), Message 20)Similar cores in Lake Suigetsu extend to 40,149 BCE and we also have this diagram of depth vs age with the bottom layer at 35 meters (115 feet) below the top layer. (The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1), Message 21)Another example of the geological column is provided in this chart of Pelycodus fossils:

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The numbers down the left hand side indicate the depth (in feet) at which each group of fossils was found. As is usual in geology, the diagram gives the data for the deepest (oldest) fossils at the bottom, and the upper (youngest) fossils at the top. The diagram covers about five million years.

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Have you never wondered why fossils are buried? They are buried by the gradual accumulation of sediments over time. Geological time.These cores also show there was no flood covering the world at any point during their formation.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : .

Curiously, you are the outlier when it comes to understanding the physical reality. Nobody agrees with you, yet we agree with one another.That's a clue.Enjoy

... except when you look at the actual time for those accumulations and compare them to the rates of accumulation we see today, it all falls in place. Literally.So your problem comes down to time, and what is real actual time. Again I direct you to Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 which shows that (a) there was no flood for the duration of the annual counting methods for measuring time, and (b) that there was plenty of time for the slow accumulation of sediments on the ocean bottoms that later became Utah.For example:From Message 831 we see 35 meters deposited over 42,000 years at Lake Suigetsu. That's 0.8333 mm per year, and over a million years that would result in sediment 833.33 m thick. We know this time because of the annual layers of the diatom/clay varves, confirmed by 14C dating calibrations.Plenty. Given actual geological time. Without any floods.EnjoyEdited by Admin, : Fix obvious typo: "833.33 km" => "833.33 m"

0.833 mm per year is 833 mm per thousand years, 833,333 mm per million years, 833 m per million years.That's 2,734 feet, or ~1/2 mile.Still significant, imho.ThanksEdited by RAZD, : correct late night math.