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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 271 of 762 (863541)
09-27-2019 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
09-26-2019 11:47 AM


Re: The solutions could be worse than the problem and nobody is addressing that
I don't often agree with you, but this says it:

It's us versus us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 09-26-2019 11:47 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 272 of 762 (863542)
09-27-2019 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
09-27-2019 9:17 AM


Re: Yikes, CATS are the biggest killer of birds
So is climate change being blamed for some environmental problems such as the horrific decrease in the bird population, when there are plenty of other manmade causes of such problems?

If housecats are killing birds at such an enormous rate why aren't we getting the alarm about that, and urgent attempts to come up with solutions?

Can the habitat problem be helped by planting more trees? Can the tower collision problem be addressed at all? I didn't know any of this until I started learning about it a few days ago. Birds are too lovable a species to lose.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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JoeT
Junior Member (Idle past 483 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 11-29-2018


(1)
Message 273 of 762 (863544)
09-27-2019 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
09-27-2019 8:45 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
I have only seen wind farms in Hawaii where they omnipresent. Didn't hear any concerns about bird kill from the locals there. Did a quick Google search on this and found this in a USA Today article. USA Today article :

"Wind turbines kill between 214,000 and 368,000 birds annually — a small fraction compared with the estimated 6.8 million fatalities from collisions with cell and radio towers and the 1.4 billion to 3.7 billion deaths from cats, according to the peer-reviewed study by two federal scientists..."

A quarter million birds is nothing to joke about, but pretty small compared to cats. That number shocked me. I also was unaware of the impact of the various towers on the bird population.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 8:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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JoeT
Junior Member (Idle past 483 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 11-29-2018


Message 274 of 762 (863546)
09-27-2019 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by JoeT
09-27-2019 9:59 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
oops I see you beat me to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by JoeT, posted 09-27-2019 9:59 AM JoeT has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 275 of 762 (863547)
09-27-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by JoeT
09-27-2019 9:59 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
Me too. Shocking problems we never hear about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by JoeT, posted 09-27-2019 9:59 AM JoeT has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4610
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 276 of 762 (863548)
09-27-2019 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
09-27-2019 8:40 AM


Re: Find Reality (then throw it away)
If you want to know what one theist thinks I figure atheism is a reasonable default position since we have no way of detecting spiritual entities by the scientific means that are held up as THE way we know anything.

That position is what I would call agnosticism. There is a proposed dichotomy between the natural and the supernatural. The natural we can detect and observe and learn things about. But the supernatural we cannot detect nor observe nor learn anything about, except for what some religious "authorities" say has been "revealed" to them. So then basically anybody can make whatever supernatural claim they'd want to make and nobody can refute that. And that does not matter how many supernaturalists may agree or disagree with them. We quite simply cannot know about such things. Period.

I was sent to church as a kid and more or less believed in God as a result although I really didn't learn much of the theology.

My following of Doonesbury has been interrupted several times. When Mike Doonesbury had a young daughter, he sent her to church. When she protested, he informed her that her duty was to "to do her pew time".

In the same spirit during my time of Boy Scouts of America having cast me out for being an atheist (the fucking religious bigots sabotaging Scouting!) while I continued to run our Cub Scout and Webelos programs with great success (BSA claimed that my mere presence would have a devastatingly disruptive effect, whereas until my leadership our unit prospered, according to one of our Den Leaders). For that matter, until I arrived we didn't even have a Webelos program and I ran it all on my own.

One of my policies in running our public school-sponsored pack was to promote BSA's Religious Medals program. The actual programs were run by the religious denominations, not by BSA. As an atheist, I believe strongly that every theist should know and understand the basis of their beliefs. Sadly, far too few do.

Until I started reading books on all the religions and ended up a Christian.

I went the same route only to find that there's nothing unique to Christianity.

My experience counters yours. You have nothing.

As for the evolution of the eye, it seems to me that trial and error is the method evolution would have to use to get from one viable form of the eye to another.

Yes. And we have gone through the mathematics of such probabilities, though you have very selectively and extremely arbitrarily chosen to ignore all the inconvenient mathematics and facts that demonstrate your position to be complete and utter bollocks.

These different forms are found all over the taxonomic tree and in my view were designed for their particular purpose where they exist.

They exist, yes. They were "designed"? SHOW US!

You want to claim that they were "designed"? OK, the onus is on you to show us that that is the case.

At the very least, at least make some kind of attempt to support your "point". Oh! You cannot even begin to support your "point" and are completely unwilling to even begin to attempt to do so? OK, we know exactly what kind of crap you are trying to pull here.

But although there are ways to see how one form could have changed in this or that way to turn it into another in a series of growing complexities, there is no way mutations are going to turn up the necessary changes in the time frames allotted and there should be so many failed mutations they'd be uncountable.

BULLSHIT! SHOW US!!!

Of course, you cannot. You never can. So why should anyone ever believe anything you ever say?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 8:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 284 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 11:09 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 277 of 762 (863549)
09-27-2019 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
09-27-2019 8:10 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
They fly into the turbines and they get fried by the intense heat rising from the solar panels when they fly over them. One of our extinction problems is the bird population.

Yes birds fly into turbines, but magnitudes more die from the effects of burning fossil fuels.
Your second point is laughable and shows your complete utter ignorance. Solar panels do not create intense heat. I have them on my house an just last week I saw a bird perched on the edge of a panel.
You really should research before you say stupid things.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 8:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 10:27 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 278 of 762 (863550)
09-27-2019 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
09-27-2019 9:17 AM


Re: Yikes, CATS are the biggest killer of birds
That is different than solar panels. That is a totally different way of harnessing solar power. There are very installations like that and the number of birds killed from them miniscule.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 9:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 10:22 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 279 of 762 (863551)
09-27-2019 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by dwise1
09-27-2019 10:13 AM


Re: Find Reality (then throw it away)
I wasn't trying to prove anything to anybody. I was telling you how I arrived at what I think. Take it or leave it. And really Mr. Wise, you have one horrible anger problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by dwise1, posted 09-27-2019 10:13 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 280 of 762 (863552)
09-27-2019 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Theodoric
09-27-2019 10:20 AM


Re: Yikes, CATS are the biggest killer of birds
The information I found, and reported, says they haven't studied it enough to know the impact yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2019 10:20 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 281 of 762 (863553)
09-27-2019 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Theodoric
09-27-2019 10:17 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
Actually I read on one of my searches that the wind farms kill more birds than the fossil fuels. But I'd have to go look again.

And I wasn't talking about house sized solar panels, I was always and only and exclusively talking about solar FARMS.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2019 10:17 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2019 10:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(2)
Message 282 of 762 (863555)
09-27-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
09-27-2019 10:27 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
The vast majority of solar farms use solar panels. They do not produce extreme heat. There are some facilities that use mirrors to heat a substrate, like salts, but they are a very small percentage of solar facilities. The heat is pinpointed and yes there is potential for birds to be killed but it is an extremely small number compared to total bird mortality.

I would love to see your source on wind farms killing more birds than fossil fuels. Did they actually use science?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 10:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2037
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 283 of 762 (863557)
09-27-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
09-27-2019 8:45 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
Vertical wind turbines would greatly reduce the relatively small share of bird deaths.

As for those huge mirror arrays to focus sun light on the top of a tower that fries those birds, I hate those - it's more of the "bigger is better" fallacy incorporate thinking. They just want a way to bill you for sunlight when it's free.

I saw that more birds deaths come from oil pits than windmills, but the google results are not well-vetted on everything. My first guess was pesticides, which not only directly poison them but also their food chain (think bees pollinating plants that provide a source of seeds for the seed-eating bird species). But while much bigger than renewable energies, pesticides and the whole fossil fuel energies were well behind windows and cats.

Around here our Animal Control Officer warns us that Coyotes and other predators hunt your outdoor cats and to bring them inside - so keep them inside for both reasons!


"I'd rather be an American than a Trump Supporter."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 8:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15386
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 284 of 762 (863560)
09-27-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by dwise1
09-27-2019 10:13 AM


Re: Find Reality (then throw it away)
she seems to be trying to communicate. I've been studying these same arguments and my conclusion is that the one thing unique about Christianity over other belief paradigms is Christ Himself. Granted if we observed a room full of fervent believers pouring their passion out to an invisible Spirit (or spirit, as often happens) we could come up with many more logical explanations of what they were doing or attempting to do without concluding that the Spirit of God is the only "real" one or that Jesus is God incarnate or that Christianity is the only right way. If you and I actually knew each other and spent a day hanging out, we may gain a deeper insight into each others character and whether or not we felt compatibility as friends or whether we had two totally different vibes (spirits) or world views.

One of my oldest friends whom I went to private school with at age 13 has turned out to have a world view similar (perhaps) to yourself and moreso AZPaul3. Ironically, he is more of a secular humanist freethinker though he has a born again son in NY. They rarely agree on much except for the fact that they are blood. He and I have two different world views just as much as you and I or myself and jar or myself and AZPaul3. The issue with Faith, I think, is that she has shown so much of the character that irritates you and in all honesty, we don't know each other. Lately, she has shown more empathy and i think she is trying to build a bridge rather than a wall. Comments, Duane?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by dwise1, posted 09-27-2019 10:13 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(3)
Message 285 of 762 (863566)
09-27-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
09-26-2019 6:24 PM


Re: The solutions could be worse than the problem and nobody is addressing that
Stop accusing big business of evil motives when they are concerned basically with producing what society has needed to function.

This society doesn’t need Coke or Pepsi in order to function. This society doesn’t need gas-guzzler SUVs in order to function. This society doesn’t need 2,3,4 cars per family in order to function.

If we had paid attention in the 60’s and did what was necessary we wouldn’t today need so much fossil fuel burning in order to function.

The first carbon offset tax schemes were introduced in the 60’s. They never made it to a vote in either the House of Senate. Why? Because Big Carbon dangled $millions of re-election funds in front of the pols faces and had the bills killed. Today, 2019, there are three carbon tax bills in the congress waiting action. Moscow Mitch McConnell has already stated that he will never allow them to come before the Senate. Guess who got a major share of his campaign funding from Big Carbon?

I don’t have to accuse big business of evil motives. They demonstrate their evil to society on their face.

They will naturally change their focus in response to changes in lifestyle.

Oh you naive sweetheart. Madison Avenue sets present society’s lifestyle, paid for by the major mega-corporations.

This isn't the early 1900s anymore. We don't determine what we want. Business and their self-serving research focus groups do. Then Madison Avenue sells you on the deep dire need you never even knew you had.

You NEED 20 different flavors of chips. You NEED 20 different flavors of soda. You NEED the latest smart phone every year. You NEED that new SUV every other year. You NEED because "they" say so. Resistance is futile.

LURE people away from the coasts?

Today we don’t have to. They are getting washed off the coasts and can’t find or afford flood insurance to rebuild. Many communities now have zoning laws that say if your ocean front home gets flooded out you are not even allowed to rebuild regardless.

You saw jar’s list of actions? If a carbon tax had been in place these last 50 years there could have been funding to help spare those fools who get washed away by sea level rise. Too late now.

Think in terms of solutions that can have capitalistic benefits.

I would think keeping society intact would be quite beneficial to business, wouldn’t you?

One of the proposals I like is to have an aggressive carbon tax on fossil fuels. The result would be drastic increases in fuel prices making alternatives more attractive. Bottom half of people in this economy (making less than $100,000) would get a hefty tax break meant to offset those increased fuel costs.

Carbon gets priced at its more realistic social cost to the world, alternatives abound and the burden is borne by those who can afford it.

Big Carbon would still be making $$ hundreds of billions but, alas, that would be $$ hundreds of billions less than they make now. New drilling would be curtailed as alternatives surge and fossil fuel usage decreased.

Greed won’t allow that. The Moscow Mitch’s Big Carbon buys in the House and Senate will never let such a thing see the light of day.

If you want to eliminate 20% of fossil fuel production/use come up with enticing -- feasible and not prohibitively expensive -- alternatives instead of just legislating the death of the industry.

Until we rid ourselves of the Moscow Mitch’s controlling government *no* proposal, no matter how fair to both humanity and business, will be allowed to come to bear.

The best we can do today to solve this global warming crisis in the USofA is to jawbone this society into getting rid of the repugnicans and get us a good leftist socialist suite of progressive liberals into Washington.

We won't destroy capitalism. We need them. But, they can be made to work for us instead of us for them.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 09-26-2019 6:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 12:16 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 12:26 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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