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Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Certainly the ability in those with this disorder have their ability to react positively to their conscience, (God's still small voice) Uh? Empathy is the emotion that makes us feel the hurt in others and makes us want to help them. Psychopaths lack conscience because they lack this emotion, they don't hear this 'still small voice', they don't feel that when they harm others that they are doing wrong. They think they can do anything they want regardless of the effect on others. It's in your definition. Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. It is sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy. The only thing that stops them harming others routinely to further their own goals is their intelligence which tells them that society will punish them for doing it. So they spend a lot of time and energy on not getting caught and/or work at not doing the things that they have learnt from society will get them into trouble even if they don't understand why.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
A War in heaven. That's hilarious. So heaven is, in fact, just a mirror image of earth and god is just a lessor immortal.
You guys, you'll believe absolutely anything.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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And, of course, it's never crossed your mind these are obviously just allegoric, man-made stories?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
It's a joke Faith, a child could see through it.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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No wonder Trump loves you guys, you're incredibly gullible.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: The ones who end up in Heaven will have free will and full knowledge of the differences between ultimate good and ultimate evil. Right so I can carry on sinning in heaven can I?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: There is a difference between the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, which of course God has, and Adam and Eve's disobedience which brought about that knowledge in their case. So A&E and god have the knowledge and now we do, great.
They got the knowleddge but they also got the sin and its suffering. So we suffer and die. Fabulous. OK, I'm dead and in heaven with knowledge of good and evil. So I can sin. How does that work? It's supposed to be paradise, can I still get mugged? If so how's it paradise? Why would I want to steal if it's paradise and I can have anything I ever wanted - or I don't need anything? How do you know all this?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: the same way that you could choose to be disruptive in a club until they threw you out. The one right you won't have in heaven is the right to be there. Hang on, I'm in paradise why would I want to be disruptive? Don't I have everything? Isn't everything perfect?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Is this life all you think you have? Once you die does tangle the personality cease to exist? Do you really need an answer? I'm an atheist, when I die that's it. No more fishing.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Of course. Some believe that free will exists in heaven--otherwise, 1/3 of the rebel angels would never have defected and gotten thrown out. We don't know if humans will have the same option. In general, nobody would want to cause ruckus or disruption in such a place except maybe cantankerous old rebels such as jar! But anybody causing a ruckus would make me unhappy, so how does that work? You're making this up as you go along aren't you?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: Yes. yes, I am. Nobody has any idea if Heaven or God exists at all. Those who believe are comfortable in their beliefs. You didn't take that red pill did you?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: However, with all that He can't make 2+2 make 5. If God had the capability as Tangle seems to think He should have, (even though he doesn't believe He exists), then yes, we have to question why there is suffering. I'm just playing back what most Christians are taught and believe about their god. All powerful, all knowing, everywhere.
However, suffering does exist therefore, either there is an overriding purpose for it or it is because of the limitation of what God could do. I'm inclined to think that it is both. So your answer to the suffering question is to invent a lessor god that is incapable of preventing it. There are alternatives of course - no god, a disinterested god and an actively evil god. You've simply chosen the one you prefer while the evidence of suffering suggest any of the others are a better bet. See below.
It is my speculative contention that the overriding factor is that it is a necessary prelude to the time of the renewal of all things, when suffering is done away with. I think it is God's limitation that this step does involve suffering, and considerable joy as well I should add, and was necessary in order to get to the final goal. Your problems here are at least twofold. First, that despite not being able to prevent suffering he went ahead and caused suffering anyway. Is that the act of a loving god? He didn't say, well it would be cool to create some people that can eventually join me in everlasting joy but to do it I have to put trillions of life forms through unimaginable agony and ultimate death. Everything I create must suffer and die for billions of years and only a tiny number of them will make it. So, on balance, it's better not too. Second, he's already created this heaven place without suffering anyway. So he COULD do it and HAS done it. What's the problem? Of course we now learn from Faith that heaven isn't this wondrous place we thought it was either. Sounds just like here but without the possibility of escape by death. Still waiting on an answer for why god denies access to his still small voice in some of his creation.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I have yet to verify that this is true. Have you tried? Is there something about the definition of a psychopath that you disagree with?
Can you speak on behalf of one who has no conscience? Science can, they know what it is and can show that it is absent in some people.
You have a still small voice. I have a conscience, sure. It's an emotion called empathy.
I still think that you and I dont understand each other on this topic. You claim that there is no God. I claim that there is One. You then claim that if there were One, he would be evil, or disinterested, which is sorta the same thing. I claim that God is good. So here we are, with the ball in my court and my answer being literally made up on the spot. So how are you going to answer it? Mine is not a random claim, suffering and death exist.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: I'm not at all sure about how you have determined what most Christians believe but I was expressing what I currently believe to be the case. The idea that god is all powerful, all knowing and everywhere is what is taught. It's not something I would expect many Christians to disagree with. Here's some revision homework. Characteristics of God - God - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - WJEC - BBC Bitesize But of course, modern Christians are very flexible on these ideas as they are plainly silly and cause all sorts of doctrinal problems when studied carefully. So modern liberal Christians begin most sentences with I believe ... which allows for anything.
Yes I have chosen the option I prefer. Which is just another way of saying I believe ...Can't argue with I believe ..., except to point out that it's irrational. Firstly I know that my life hasn't, and I doubt that your life has, been a life of unimaginable agony. Yes, life as we know it ends in death but the Christian message is that it isn't death but a transforming of life to the next stage. You have no sense of perspective. This isn't about you and me and now. Life began billions of years ago and ever since has had to consume other life to simply survive. Modern humans - a species that you would recognise as quite like us - have only been around for about 200,000 years but I betting you wouldn't think of them as having a soul, they lived like wild animals - kill or be killed. Even up to a few hundred years ago life for humans was incredibly difficult, painful and very short. You could die from toothache, having a child was a near death sentence. Just surviving was incredibly hard. This is not the work of a god that loves his creation. At very best it's the work of one that doesn't care about our suffering. And no, a few moments of peace and happiness does not make up for all that death and destruction when quite obviously a real loving god could have made it so much better.
I frankly don't have an firm opinion on whether God created Heaven or not. It is my view that heaven represents a dimension or universe integrated with our own, that we with our 5 senses are unable to perceive directly. More I believe ... you are so far away from generic Christianity that it can't be Christianity anymore.
The stories about the battles in heaven are an import from the various pagan faiths of the neighbouring nations of the Jews. Why on earth would Jesus call us to pray that "thy will be done on earth as in heaven" if those stories were accounts to be taken literally. The entire thing is an import from all sorts of myths!
Also, as I said numerous times, heaven is not our final destination. The Biblical message is that our final destination is a renewed heaven and earth whatever that will look like. That message of course means that how we care for this planet, as well as its inhabitants, does have eternal ramifications. Again, this is just I believe ... stuff. Stuff you've made up to fit modern science and environmental knowledge. Your position would be totally incomprehensible to a 17th century Christian and probably heresy.
I don't accept the idea that anyone , even a psychopath, is denied God's meme, or His still small voice. Then you're denying evidence. Extreme psychopaths lack conscience and empathy.
I have read stories of psychopaths that have done terrible things but have absolutely adored a pet. Well that clinches it!
Jesus says something to the effect that much will be required from someone who has been given much. Clearly the opposite is true. If life has given someone a handicap of one form or another it does not mean that there isn't a part of that individual that hates some of what they do and actually desires goodness. Religious waffle. Try to stick to the facts. If a brain function is missing, the brain can't do it. Psychopaths have a missing brain function.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Of course I use the term I believe. Just so long as you realise that that term only convinces you.
So what? Modern physics would be incomprehensible to even a 19th century physicist. The 'so what' issue is that it's not obvious why a belief about god and religion should change. God and the book that the belief is based on does not change. All that changes are the religious institution's that purport to represent the god.
Just how do you work that out. You heard that 'a psychopath’ liked a pet? That's evidence of what exactly?
It shows that the psychopath was able to have empathy for a living creature. We can never know what is going on the the heart or the conscience of any other human being. One 5 second google
quote: Do Psychopaths Have Emotions? - Neuroinstincts | Dr. Rhonda Freeman You are very quick to find escape clauses, do me a favour, do some reading and try to answer the question without an I believe... start to the sentence.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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