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Author
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Topic: ICANT'S position in the creation debate
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 317 of 687 (522529)
09-03-2009 9:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 314 by Modulous
09-03-2009 6:24 PM
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Re: time
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes: Relativity works. By assuming that time is a property of the universe (or more precisely 'spacetime'), we have GPS. I thought we had GPS because of a satellite system of 27 satellites with 24 working all the time. That has some equipment on it that keeps very accurate time and sends data which includes its location and the time continuously. These satellites are kept up to date by fixed land stations. Then we have receivers that can receive the signal from 3 or 4 of those satellites. Calculate its position in relation to those satellites and know within a meter of where it is located on planet earth. There are receivers that are much more accurate by using a land based station also. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 314 by Modulous, posted 09-03-2009 6:24 PM | | Modulous has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Your creationist position relative to the mainstream creationist position?
Hi Moose,
Minnemooseus writes: This tells me you are agnostic about whether God is behind the ultimate universe origin. Regardless if such is true, such is my position. I said I have no problem with it. That does not mean I accept it. But I would not limit God. If God spoke all the universe into existence or put it together out of existing material I would think it would be an awesome display of fireworks as everything raced around and got into its place.
Minnemooseus writes: You apparently are outside of that mainstream. I'm not normal that is for sure.
Minnemooseus writes: The age of the universe? — Mainstream science has it that the universe as we know it is about 13.5 billion years old. My interpretation is that such DOES NOT conflict with your eternal universe position — The 13.5 billion year universe could be the current version of your larger eternal universe. Again, I personally have no conflict with such a position. Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning. I have nothing else to go by. If the beginning was 13.7 BYA then that is when it all started. If it was 50 BYA then that is when it started I have no reference for the time and will have to be satisfied with what we can find out from the universe.
Minnemooseus writes: The age of the Earth? — Mainstream science has it that the Earth as we know it is about 4.5 billion years old. Does your position conflict with that or are you willing to accept that? The earth was created in the first light period and could have been 4.5 BYA more or less, I have no reference and will accept what the earth tells us.
Minnemooseus writes: The age of the first life on Earth? — Mainstream science has it that life on Earth goes back 3+ billion years. Does your position conflict with that or are you willing to accept that? I have no problem with that age for life. The problem is that I believe that life was created by God and was mankind, then plants, then animals, fowls, and then woman. All of these life forms are extinct and have formed all the many layers we find in the earth. The plates of the earth have moved around so much that I doubt very seriously if any of the larger life forms can be found or identified.
Minnemooseus writes: The age of the first human (Homo sapiens)? — Mainstream science has it that the Homo sapiens species goes back many 1000's of years (I don't offhand have a good number). Anyway, this is far outside the mainstream YAC/YEC timeframe of 5 to 10 thousand years. Does your position conflict with that many 1000's of years timeframe or are you willing to accept that? I believe modern man appeared on the 6th day of God's remodeling job of earth that took place in Genesis 1:2 - Genesis 2:3. Many have said that is 6000 years ago. I don't know because the Bible does not say when it was. Man has figured out a lot of things that he eventually found out he was wrong about. So whatever the bones tell us is OK by me.
Minnemooseus writes: Do the modern great ages (gorillas, chimps) and modern humans have a common ancestor? — Mainstream science has it that such is the case. Mainstream creationist position is that humanity was God's special creation and that the great apes of man have no common ancestor. Do you agree or disagree with the mainstream science position? I believe that God created everything that is alive on the face of the earth today and everything that is extinct. All of these things were created from the same elements by the same creator. Therefore all those things would have many things in common. I believe man is special in that God gave him a special body, with a spirit, and a mind to think, reason, and make decisions with knowing right from wrong.
Minnemooseus writes: Mainstream creationist position is that the Noahtic flood was a literal event and that it was a sort of a modification or re-creation event. Mainstream science finds that such a flood never happened. What is your position concerning such a flood? I am on record here that I believe the flood took place. I really have no time frame for it. I do not believe in any reconstruction during the flood. In fact I don't think there would be any trace of a global flood as YECS put forth. I am also on record as saying the flood would have been impossible without divine intervention. Which I have no problem with as I believe "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" If God could do that He would have no problem with a little flood. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: time
Hi Teapot,
Teapots&unicorns writes: Apparenty, ICANT, you do not understand what role relativity plays in GPS. Judging by Einstein's relativity, the faster an object goes, the slower time goes relative to that object. In GPS satellites, the radar depends on bei ng able to accurately measure the time and distance made by a vehicle or person extremely accurately. If it misjudged your time or speed, you could end up in, for example, Ground Zero in stead of the Empire State building- possibly more. You probably right about that. As I only know that each GPS satellite transmits data that indicates its location and the current time. All GPS satellites synchronize operations so that these repeating signals are transmitted at the same instant. GPS receivers locate three satellites and use trilateration to determine where it is on planet earth. Anything else is computed by data that is in the particular GPS unit. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 318 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-03-2009 9:22 PM | | Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 323 of 687 (522599)
09-04-2009 8:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 321 by greyseal
09-04-2009 7:39 AM
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Re: Time
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes: If time were not a property of the universe, we couldn't measure it. Evidence: The Physics definition of time.
Time - definition of time by The Free Dictionarytime Noun 1. the past, present, and future regarded as a continuous whole Related adjective temporal 2. Physics a quantity measuring duration, measured with reference to the rotation of the earth or from the vibrations of certain atoms The Physics definition says time is a quantity of measuring duration. Duration is what happens. Time is the tool used to determine the length of that duration. Now as I said to CS. If you got some scientific evidence present it. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 321 by greyseal, posted 09-04-2009 7:39 AM | | greyseal has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: time
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: Still insiting that time is a purely human construct huh? The fact that identical atomic clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields regardless of units or measurement is probably beyond you. What does that have to do with 24 atomic clocks that are synchronized and running together so they send the data at the same instant? That is how the GPS can figures out where it is at. By the difference in the amount of time it takes for the signal to reach it. If the GPS is mobile it can calculate where it is with every signal received. If it has a program with maps in it, it can place itself on that map. That is what I was referring to. Anyway you just rant on. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 322 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 8:31 AM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Time
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: Would atoms stop vibrating at specific rates if there were no humans to measure these rates? Is that what you are saying? Are you saying all atoms pulse at the same rates? Cesium 133 is the element most commonly chosen for atomic clocks. Certain atoms are chosen by a magnetic field because they have the proper energy state. These atoms are then adjusted to the right energy state by applying microwave energy at exactly the right frequency. This peak is used to correct the microwave field on exact frequency. Once this frequency is locked it is then divided by 9,192,631,770 to give the familiar one pulse per second required by the real world. So since the atomic clock has to have specific atoms that have been alter in their energy state to be accurate, what does your assertion have to do with anything? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 324 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 8:43 AM | | Straggler has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: To spout your favorite equivocation back at you...is it made of particles or waves? Both.
Perdition writes: Length is a catch-all term indicating a definite size. I will agree that length is a term that indicates the length of a physical object. The numbers that designate length is a measurement set up by man. But you said it was a property of the physical object. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 309 by Perdition, posted 09-03-2009 5:02 PM | | Perdition has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 330 of 687 (522646)
09-04-2009 10:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 327 by cavediver
09-04-2009 9:48 AM
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Re: Time
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Go look up GPS and relativity on Wikipedia, and when you come back, perhaps you won't look quite so stupid.
What does GPS and relativity have to do with how an atomic clock is made? Are you saying an atomic clock is not made the way I described? If it is not then please explain how an atomic clock is made. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 327 by cavediver, posted 09-04-2009 9:48 AM | | cavediver has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 332 of 687 (522650)
09-04-2009 11:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 328 by Straggler
09-04-2009 9:48 AM
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Re: time a question
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: Time as a physical property of the universe. As demonstrated by GPS. Wouldn't that make time absolute and not relative to anything? Is there a definition of time that says it is anything other than the measurement of duration anywhere? There is metaphysics that proposes that there is a time dimension but metaphysics is not science. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 328 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 9:48 AM | | Straggler has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 333 of 687 (522655)
09-04-2009 11:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 331 by Jazzns
09-04-2009 11:02 AM
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Re: Time Great Example
Hi Jazzns,
Jazzns writes: If you can influence time with matter, time is therefore a property of the universe. Great example. But you have not influenced time. The duration is the same on the beach and on the mountain or in the satellite. All you have influenced is the man made instrument that is supposed to be marking time. That influence is caused by what is called gravity. How one body of mass affects another body of mass. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 331 by Jazzns, posted 09-04-2009 11:02 AM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 342 by Jazzns, posted 09-04-2009 1:25 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 338 of 687 (522677)
09-04-2009 12:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 336 by NosyNed
09-04-2009 11:51 AM
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Re: GPS calculations
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes: But, ICANT, those calculations do not work because space time itself is twisted by the motion and position of the satellites. They only work if both general and special relativity are included to account for that.
Atomic clocks on all the orbiting GPS satellites initiate a precisely simultaneous series of data transmissions. The signals from three or four of these satellites arrive at a GPS receiver at slightly different times, depending on the distance the signal traveled from each satellite. The GPS receiver must know the exact time the data left the satellite in order to measure the time delay of each satellite's signal. This information comes from the three satellites delayed signal. The receiver has firmware that tells it where each satellite is at any instant. This enables the receiver to adjust for the delay and determine when the signal left the satellite. Once this is done the receiver sets its internal clock until it matches the data received from the satellites. When this is accomplished its internal clock is set to near-perfect agreement with the atomic clocks aboard the satellites. Once that is accomplished and you have a special GPS unit mounted on a D7 bulldozer the computer can then adjust the blade with no lag time and with an accuracy of a few centimeters to cut a grade. I know this by experience, as I have operated such a machine. It is amazing technology. And very expensive. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 336 by NosyNed, posted 09-04-2009 11:51 AM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 339 of 687 (522678)
09-04-2009 1:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 337 by Perdition
09-04-2009 12:40 PM
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Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: Oh really? The definition of duration is existence. Existence is all those little atoms and waves. Without those little atoms and waves there is no existence. With no existence there is no duration as we call it to measure.
Perdition writes: So, God is a product of the human mind, You are welcome to believe that if you so desire. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 337 by Perdition, posted 09-04-2009 12:40 PM | | Perdition has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 346 of 687 (522737)
09-04-2009 4:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 344 by Modulous
09-04-2009 3:14 PM
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Re: time
Hi Mod, In Message 314 You informed me:
Modulous writes: Do you have scientific evidence that time is a property of the Universe?
Relativity works. By assuming that time is a property of the universe (or more precisely 'spacetime'), we have GPS.
Then you follow with this message.
Modulous writes: relativity works which is the scientific evidence you asked for. Thank you for your presentation of Wikipedia as your evidence. From your article.
Special relativity predicts that atomic clocks moving at GPS orbital speeds will tick more slowly than stationary ground clocks by about 7.2 s per day. SR predicts the atomic clock will tick more slowly. That means the pulse has been changed due to gravity.
For the GPS satellites, general relativity predicts that the atomic clocks at GPS orbital altitudes will tick more rapidly, by about 45.9 microseconds (s) per day, because they have a higher gravitational potential than atomic clocks on Earth's surface. GR predicts the atomic clock will tick more rapidly. That means the pulse has changed. Then explains gravity as the cause. Duration does not change just because the atomic clock's pulse rate is changed. Conclusion: SR predicts the tick will be slower. GR predicts the tick will be faster. Neither of them predict that the duration in the satellite is different from the duration at the land based station. It does predict that the atomic clock will be affected by gravity. So explain how that is scientific evidence that time is a property of the universe. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 344 by Modulous, posted 09-04-2009 3:14 PM | | Modulous has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 349 of 687 (522761)
09-04-2009 6:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 348 by Modulous
09-04-2009 5:04 PM
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Re: time
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes: By assuming that time is a property of the universe (ie., spacetime), relativity makes predictions that turn out to be true. This is evidence that the assumption is accurate. Are you saying the clocks tick slower because time is a property of the universe? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 348 by Modulous, posted 09-04-2009 5:04 PM | | Modulous has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 355 of 687 (522775)
09-04-2009 7:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 353 by Modulous
09-04-2009 6:20 PM
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Re: time
Hi Mod, I need to know what your definition of time is. Thanks, God bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 353 by Modulous, posted 09-04-2009 6:20 PM | | Modulous has replied |
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