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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 68 of 687 (520793)
08-24-2009 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
08-21-2009 10:48 PM


ICANT,

Your claim that there is no evidence suggesting how the universe came to exist is false. Follow the BB model and the evidence suggesting it occured such as redshift or mbr...

Your claim that Science has no evidence suggesting how life came to exist is also false too. Simply follow the evidence for a biogenesis which is seperate from the TOE.

The issue is not that there is or is not evidence for god-creation or any-idea-of-evolution but rather, in regards to EVC arguments, what is more plausible?

Do try to think in probabilities.

Edited by Sasuke, : clarity


Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 08-21-2009 10:48 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:11 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 69 of 687 (520794)
08-24-2009 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by anglagard
08-23-2009 11:05 PM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
anglagard,

anglagard writes:

While I agree with your statement in general, I am puzzled as to what constitutes a 'miliant' athiest. Is it entirely based upon verbal or written criticism of religion such as Dawkins (who explicitly does not criticize my religion as stated in the first chapter of the God Delusion) or PZ Myers?

I think what puzzles me most is how can one call atheists 'militant' when I can't recall a single instance of a car bombing, school (or abortion doctor) shooting, or any other recent act of terrorism based upon a primary motivation of atheism.

Perhaps you can provide some examples, I vaguely remember maybe one in the last 30 years.

Look up the hitler-darwin connection...click-here


Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by anglagard, posted 08-23-2009 11:05 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:03 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 71 of 687 (520796)
08-24-2009 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by caldron68
08-23-2009 9:44 PM


Re: Getting Older
caldron68,

caldron68 writes:

Considering that science has proven the broader story of Genesis to be false, isn't it only logical to assume that the first 10 words are also false?

You can't "prove" Genesis to be false or true.


Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by caldron68, posted 08-23-2009 9:44 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 72 of 687 (520797)
08-24-2009 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by lyx2no
08-23-2009 10:54 PM


Re: Getting Older
lyx2no,

do you believe in protons, electrons, and neutrons?

Edited by Sasuke, : err


Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by lyx2no, posted 08-23-2009 10:54 PM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by lyx2no, posted 08-24-2009 9:42 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 73 of 687 (520798)
08-24-2009 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by ochaye
08-24-2009 2:54 AM


Re: Getting Older
ochaye,

whether or not the story in Genesis is true or false can't be proven. You can however lean one way or the other... Or try to think in probabilities..

Edited by Sasuke, : err


Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 2:54 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:14 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 75 of 687 (520800)
08-24-2009 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:03 AM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
ochaye,

ochaye writes:

'the hitler-darwin connection'
A myth propagated by people as despicable as Hitler, and more dangerous. Do not be taken in.

Both are arguments/opinions... Neither can be proven true or false..

ochaye writes:

Evolution has made Homo sapiens into the social animal par excellence, and defined the likes of Nazis as biological as well as moral retards.

Also an opinion can't be proven true or false.

ochaye writes:

Yes, evolution is moral. Something to meditate upon.

Morality is a concept of man just like religion. You could say that morality is probably a product of evolution, sure, but not that evolution is moral.. LOL..

Edited by Sasuke, : addition

Edited by Sasuke, : clarity


Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:03 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:16 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 78 of 687 (520803)
08-24-2009 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:14 AM


Re: Getting Older
ochaye,

ochaye writes:

The story in Gen 1 is proven false in the literal sense by Gen 2 At least one of the stories must be allegorical (and probably both, as scholarship holds) and there was never any need for science to come along and say so.

That is one of the arguments however there is no proof. What proof is there that indeed, in a absolute sense, that because gen 2 is contradictory to gen 1 that this means that gen 1 is false??? or the other way around that gen 2 is false?

As for Science to come along and say so, Science never came a long and said that gene 1 or gene 2 is false... LOL...


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:14 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:45 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 79 of 687 (520804)
08-24-2009 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:16 AM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
ochaye,

I could forget about a lot of things.. However, I think it is wise to think in probabilities rather than to think in absolutes.


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:16 AM ochaye has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 81 of 687 (520807)
08-24-2009 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:45 AM


Re: Getting Older
ochaye,

No. The EVC argument is based on 1 argument being more probable than the other argument. LOL..


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:45 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:49 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 83 of 687 (520809)
08-24-2009 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:49 AM


Re: Getting Older
ochaye,

haha..logic.. go learn a little bit about life my friend..


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:49 AM ochaye has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 97 of 687 (520881)
08-24-2009 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by lyx2no
08-24-2009 9:42 AM


Re: Getting Older
lyx2no,

but are they really protons, neutrons or electrons? Do you actually KNOW?


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by lyx2no, posted 08-24-2009 9:42 AM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by lyx2no, posted 08-24-2009 8:02 PM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 98 of 687 (520886)
08-24-2009 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ICANT
08-24-2009 10:11 AM


Re: Re; Scientific Evidence
ICANT,

icant writes:

You added "suggesting" to my claim.

No I did not. If you're claiming that "Science has no evidence concerning how the universe began to exist." or that "Science has no evidence of how life began to exist." that is a suggestion.

ICANT writes:

In 2 1/2 years at EvC no one has ever presented any evidence of facts of how the universe or life began to exist.

The scientific answer is "we don't know".

The big bang model explains how the universe COULD have expanded. It also suggest that the universe has always existed. Why would there HAVE to be a begining? And if there was, even if the BB model is wrong, why does it result to GOD DID IT? How about, where did GOD come from? I assume you are going to say GOD has always existed but U have no evidence.... It is utterly a W.A.G.... Atleast with the BB model we understand more and it is based on EVIDENCE.. Do I need to repeat some of that evidence? redshift, mbr...

ICANT writes:


Well the universe existed before expansion began

Says you! Follow the evidence. Not historical claims.

ICANT writes:

All the redshift and the mbr prove is that the Word of God is correct when over 2700 years ago it said:

There is no such thing as proof in relation to argument and more specifically evc arguments. I always find it funny when religious fanatics fail to see that point. Just because the BIBLE says it, does not mean it is TRUE.. Revelations are not enough to conclude that it is from GOD either so dont bring that hogwash up..

ICANT writes:


The universe is expanding. So what? That fact has been in print for over 2700 years. Scientist could have saved a lot of money by reading the Word of God.

The word of GOD is a claim, even depending on which religion u study, however, scientists actually study what is going on by observation.

Why should I trust that the BIBLE is a divine book? What makes it any more divine than any other cultures thoughts on divinty? Have you ever studied history? Why is it that per culture there is a different divinity? Even within the same culture there is confusion on divinity? If GOD were REAL why would it choose confusion over clarity?


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:11 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:36 PM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 100 of 687 (520892)
08-24-2009 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
08-24-2009 1:22 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
ICANT,

I have issues with your post. You said:

"It would be eternal never having to begin to exist or cease to exist."

False. Take math for example, start counting, where do you start counting? now tell me when you have reached the last number.

You also said:

"In fact the claim is that it began to exist but will never cease to exist."

False. The claim is that the universe has always existed.

As for the rest of your post, you're stuck on "In the begining".. The issue is, there could have never been a begining.. OPEN YOUR MIND..

Oh and the 13.7 billion years in terms of time is relative to the begining of time, when things started to break down, when the first ATOM was formed. Before there was time, if there was such a thing, there could have been space still, just nothing existing in that space so chemical reactions could not occur, so we could not measure it in the form of time... Atleast in our form of TIME... I think that is where u are getting confused... Remember the word "time" is a symbolic word/ or tool used for measuring. Man created the word TIME and its defintion, its definition could change some day.. OPEN YOUR MIND...


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 1:22 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 101 of 687 (520893)
08-24-2009 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straggler
08-24-2009 6:37 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Straggler,

You said: "The universe has existed for all of time. Does that answer your question?"

I don't think he is catching that our universe could have existed before time and that time is a product of our universe.


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2009 6:37 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Rahvin, posted 08-24-2009 7:53 PM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 104 of 687 (520897)
08-24-2009 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Rahvin
08-24-2009 7:53 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Rahvin,

It is all starting to make sense now... I used to be like that... I think we were all once like that... I am glad I started going to college back in 2003.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Rahvin, posted 08-24-2009 7:53 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

    
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