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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 346 of 418 (853855)
06-01-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Stile
05-31-2019 1:50 PM


Stile writes:

But, according to Stile, I have no such fears of pointlessness.
In fact, I find more pointlessness in being created by a God than I do in determining my own purpose in life.

I agree that if you have such fears... then believing in God can be a benefit for you.
But if I don't have such fears... why do I need such a "benefit?"

If I have similar fears about ultimate purpose - such as "If I was created by a God, that really turns this life into a bit of a mouse-and-cheese maze... but I want to be more than that - I want to be completely free to create my own purpose - free of all Creator-Gods"
-Then believing in God is actually detrimental to me.
-And by creating my own purpose, and not involving God in any of it - I obtain the same benefit for myself that you receive from God for yourself.


OK, but God, as I understand Him, leaves you completely free to "create your own purpose". I am not suggesting that you have to involve any deity in order to do that.

In some ways atheism leaves you freer to choose what I believe God wants you to choose which is that you live a life based on the sacrificial love of others and for all of creation. You aren't looking for a reward of any kind you are simply choosing to do the loving thing for its own sake.

However, I would contend as a Christian that I am only able to choose the loving thing because God loved me first and that any loving thing I am able to do is just that I am reflecting God's love into the situation. I would also add that I strongly disagree that the point of Christianity is personal salvation. The point of Christianity is personal vocation. Yes, the Biblical message talks about the renewal of all things under Christ, but where you or I fit into that is God's business and not mine. Our vocation is simply to be loving stewards over creation.

GDR writes:

However if there is a loving God as personified in Jesus then there is a point to our existence.

Stile writes:

You forgot the words "...for GDR."
This actually lowers "the point of Stile's existence." It makes things worse for me.

How can it make things worse for you. If I can assume that you are, or have been a loving parent in your life, then isn't it better that that act of love has a positive effect on creation both now and into an eternal renewal of creation, than simply the effect it has on your descendants for a few generations?

Stile writes:

Again - I fully agree.
And again - I do not involve God or any Creator in any way.

So what is the benefit here that cannot be obtained without God?
I don't see any.
I just see a man identifying that GDR, himself, would have less benefit without God - but this same man is unable to comprehend that, perhaps, not everyone thinks the same way he does.

I take it you wouldn't be surprised if you and I have two different favourite colours?
Why then, do you appear so unable to understand that you and I have two different favourite solutions for life's big unknowns?

I think that the argument can be made that many people, such as Tangle's friend, do find solace and comfort from the belief in a specific deity, in this case the Christian god. That is a benefit for many although not for you.

Ultimately though it all boils down to Pilate's big question. What is truth. Is there a good and loving god? Did Jesus perfectly embody the wisdom and nature of God? Did that God resurrect Jesus? For me there is sufficient evidence from historical accounts; from my own observations of our world and my life in it; from my own life experience and even from reading books on the subject of physics, (even though it has only resulted in the tiniest basic understanding of the subject). If what I believe by faith to be true then there are benefits, including life itself, that are only available through God. Those benefits though are not subject to our beliefs about God. The rain falls on the good and the evil.

Thanks Stile, I enjoy your posts.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 1:50 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Stile, posted 06-03-2019 10:25 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 347 of 418 (853856)
06-01-2019 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by ringo
05-31-2019 1:59 PM


GDR writes:

If there is no god then our existence is ultimately meaningless.

ringo writes:

I think "meaningless" is preferable to a "meaning" imposed by an alien overlord.

I don't see it as being imposed. We can accept that the meaning of the hope for our world is that the fundamental characteristic of our world would be sacrificial love for one another and for all of creation. I think most of us here would sign on to that. However, it isn't imposed, we are completely free to reject that and live out lives based on self love and the gaining of personal wealth and power, and of course, everything in between.

ringo writes:

The "meaning" in a cow's life is to be food for us. Don't you think a cow would prefer to find its own meaning?

There's a good prairie illustration. I think that cows would find meaning in moo-ving on into a recreated world where the wolf lies down with the lamb, and by extension the cow.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 1:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 06-02-2019 2:31 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 348 of 418 (853858)
06-01-2019 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by GDR
06-01-2019 5:07 PM


GDR writes:

This is the way the world is, and sure, you can claim that a loving creator god could not have allowed for suffering. It's a good argument.

It's a conclusive argument and you know it. If for no other reason than your book tells you that your god has created at least two paradises that don't include suffering - Eden and Heaven.

However, it is my contention that entropy is a necessary feature of this world and that a loving deity has given us as humans the job of doing all that we can to mitigate suffering, whether the suffering is caused by humans or not

And surely you must know that's utter shite. It can't make any sense at all even to you. This is Hitch's “Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well,” Just logical nonsense.

The last was a feature of Nazism.

The last feature of a lost argument. You'd better hope you don't finish up like my relative - begging to die.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:07 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 7:07 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 06-01-2019 7:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2241
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 349 of 418 (853862)
06-01-2019 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by GDR
06-01-2019 5:07 PM


However, there is no doubt in my mind that there will be unintended consequences. As the population ages there will be more and more pressure put on people to "do the right thing" as they are past their "best sell by date". Offspring, pushing mentally confused parents to be euthanized so that they can inherit sooner rather than later. It is a very slippery slope. Another would be the pressure to euthanize the mentally handicapped. The last was a feature of Nazism. We are very capable of going down that road.

We may be capable of going down the wrong road, but we are also capable of resisting our baser impulses.

Oregon passed its "Death with Dignity Act in 1997 and so far none of the things you worry about have happened.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:07 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 7:23 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 350 of 418 (853865)
06-01-2019 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Tangle
06-01-2019 6:06 PM


Tangle writes:

It's a conclusive argument and you know it. If for no other reason than your book tells you that your god has created at least two paradises that don't include suffering - Eden and Heaven.

That is only conclusive if you require that I agree with an inerrantist understanding of the Bible.
Tangle writes:

And surely you must know that's utter shite. It can't make any sense at all even to you. This is Hitch's “Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well,” Just logical nonsense.

Once again you are assuming a fundamentalist position. We are created with the freedom to make our own choices, good or evil - sick or well.
Tangle writes:

You'd better hope you don't finish up like my relative - begging to die.

I hope I don't too, and if it was legal at it would be a good thing for me in that case, but I still maintain that it would be a terrible thing overall for society.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2019 6:06 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2019 2:58 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 351 of 418 (853866)
06-01-2019 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Tangle
06-01-2019 6:06 PM


This really needs to be learned
We weren't "created sick," that's a common sort of ignorance though, which apparently described Hitch, despite his having a Christian brother. We were created perfect as was everything else. It was sin that brought sickness, suffering and death.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2019 6:06 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2019 3:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 352 of 418 (853867)
06-01-2019 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Tanypteryx
06-01-2019 6:32 PM


Tanypteryx writes:

We may be capable of going down the wrong road, but we are also capable of resisting our baser impulses.

Yes, and most of us do, however, over time things become acceptable in society. As I said, with an aging population it will IMHO, become common for someone who is living in a home to be encouraged by medical people or even family; to encourage people to take that route.

Tanypteryx writes:

Oregon passed its "Death with Dignity Act in 1997 and so far none of the things you worry about have happened.

How would you know that? No one is going to admit that they had pressured someone in to allowing themselves to be euthanized. There will never be statistics on it. The only statistic that you might be able to get is to see how many people were euthenized. It certainly won't support anything that would back up your claim.

In Canada for years now we have had palliative care for people near the end. At the end the often will up the level of morphine to ease pain and even cut of nourishment to facilitate the passing people painlessly. WE haven't needed a law on the books to deal with situations like that. Sure, it doesn't catch everyone, and people like Tangle's relative continue to suffer, but I'd venture to say that it catches the majority of people nearing the end.

Totally off topic, I'd like to know what type of insect it is that you have pictured there. I was just out on the patio reading a book and one just like that landed on my book mark and I was wondering what it was. It looked just like that except that the tail, (or whatever you call that part), was red, and interestingly enough it was pulsing making it look like it had a heartbeat.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-01-2019 6:32 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Faith, posted 06-01-2019 7:31 PM GDR has responded
 Message 355 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-01-2019 8:36 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 353 of 418 (853868)
06-01-2019 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by GDR
06-01-2019 7:23 PM


Didn't you ever see dragonflies when you were a kid?

For that matter have you missed all of Tanypteryx's beautiful photos of dragonflies?

But I'm sure Tanypteryx will know just what species that red "tail" identifies.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 7:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 7:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 354 of 418 (853869)
06-01-2019 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Faith
06-01-2019 7:31 PM


Faith writes:

Didn't you ever see dragonflies when you were a kid?
But I'm sure Tanypteryx will know just what species that red "tail" identifies.

Maybe it was a dragon fly. It just didn't look like any one I had seen previously.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Faith, posted 06-01-2019 7:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2241
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 355 of 418 (853871)
06-01-2019 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by GDR
06-01-2019 7:23 PM


Totally off topic, I'd like to know what type of insect it is that you have pictured there. I was just out on the patio reading a book and one just like that landed on my book mark and I was wondering what it was. It looked just like that except that the tail, (or whatever you call that part), was red, and interestingly enough it was pulsing making it look like it had a heartbeat.

My avatar is a dragonfly called Tanypteryx hageni. People are reporting a red one called Sympetrum illotum in BC right now. It is usually the first Sympetrum to be seen in the PNW in Spring. If you google the name you may be able to confirm that is the species you saw.

The pulsing of the abdomen is breathing. Insects pump air in and out through holes in some segments called spiracles that are hooked to a network of tubes called trachea that facilitate gas exchange with all the cells of the body. So their respiriatory system is separate from their mouths and their circulatory system.

Yes, and most of us do, however, over time things become acceptable in society. As I said, with an aging population it will IMHO, become common for someone who is living in a home to be encouraged by medical people or even family; to encourage people to take that route.

In Oregon, the act specifies that the person must be under a doctor's care and terminal. We have advance directives and hospice care, but this gives a person control of their own body and destiny. The patient has to be able to communicate and make their wishes clear.

We also allow an advance directive to dictate whether a patient can be revived or hooked up to medical equipment to keep them alive.

If coercion is going to happen, it can happen just as easily without the Death with Dignity Act. Terminal patients commit suicide on their own without a doctor's care, so I don't think your reasoning is sound.

This just gives an individual the option to make this decision rather than doctors or you or the government forcing them to hang in there no matter what.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 7:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 10:30 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 356 of 418 (853875)
06-01-2019 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Tanypteryx
06-01-2019 8:36 PM


Tanpteryx writes:

My avatar is a dragonfly called Tanypteryx hageni. People are reporting a red one called Sympetrum illotum in BC right now. It is usually the first Sympetrum to be seen in the PNW in Spring. If you google the name you may be able to confirm that is the species you saw.

The pulsing of the abdomen is breathing. Insects pump air in and out through holes in some segments called spiracles that are hooked to a network of tubes called trachea that facilitate gas exchange with all the cells of the body. So their respiriatory system is separate from their mouths and their circulatory system.

That was definitely it. Beautiful little creature. Thanks so much.

Tanypteryx writes:

In Oregon, the act specifies that the person must be under a doctor's care and terminal. We have advance directives and hospice care, but this gives a person control of their own body and destiny. The patient has to be able to communicate and make their wishes clear.

We also allow an advance directive to dictate whether a patient can be revived or hooked up to medical equipment to keep them alive.

If coercion is going to happen, it can happen just as easily without the Death with Dignity Act. Terminal patients commit suicide on their own without a doctor's care, so I don't think your reasoning is sound.

This just gives an individual the option to make this decision rather than doctors or you or the government forcing them to hang in there no matter what.

It all sounds very clinical and very reasonable and may well work for a while. Also, coercing someone to agree to being euthanized is very different than coercing someone to commit suicide.

However, I don't believe for one minute it will end there. It is like so many other things. Look how things have advanced since making abortion legal.
Advocating for infanticide in US Nobody wouold have envisioned this initially. It too was a slippery slope.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-01-2019 8:36 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Theodoric, posted 06-03-2019 9:53 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 357 of 418 (853886)
06-02-2019 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by GDR
06-01-2019 7:07 PM


GDR writes:

That is only conclusive if you require that I agree with an inerrantist understanding of the Bible.

You don't believe in heaven?

Or that your god could end suffering and death if he so wished?

Once again you are assuming a fundamentalist position. We are created with the freedom to make our own choices, good or evil - sick or well.

Both those statement are false.

We are obviously not free to choose to be sick or well and we do not have equal freedom to do good or evil (we are not born with equal genetic makeup, opportunity, propensity, environment or upbringing.)

I hope I don't too, and if it was legal at it would be a good thing for me in that case, but I still maintain that it would be a terrible thing overall for society.

Good for you but others can't be trusted? That's no way to run a society. Nor is it Christian.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 7:07 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 10:12 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 358 of 418 (853887)
06-02-2019 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
06-01-2019 7:15 PM


Re: This really needs to be learned
Faith writes:

We weren't "created sick," that's a common sort of ignorance though, which apparently described Hitch, despite his having a Christian brother. We were created perfect as was everything else. It was sin that brought sickness, suffering and death.

WE were not created perfect. WE are destined to suffer and die. The rest is a fairytale.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 06-01-2019 7:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 359 of 418 (853901)
06-02-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Tangle
06-02-2019 2:58 AM


Tangle writes:

You don't believe in heaven?

Not as our final destination. Going to a spiritual heaven is Platonism not Christianity.
Tangle writes:

Or that your god could end suffering and death if he so wished?

Actually I don't believe that He can in this life. In this life it would require the removal of free will, and entropy seems to be a consequence of 'the flow of time. However, I do believe that suffering and death are not part of the next life with the renewal of all things.
GDR writes:

Once again you are assuming a fundamentalist position. We are created with the freedom to make our own choices, good or evil - sick or well.

Tangle writes:

Both those statement are false.

We are obviously not free to choose to be sick or well and we do not have equal freedom to do good or evil (we are not born with equal genetic makeup, opportunity, propensity, environment or upbringing.)

I assumed that the way that your previous post read that you meant sick or well to be referring to our thinking. Of course we can't choose sick or well healthwise.

Also of course there are numerous factors involved in our life choices when it comes to choosing good or evil, but no one always chooses the good thing and nobody always chooses the evil thing but we still have the freedom to make those choices. I agree though that it is certainly easier for some than others due to the factors you mentioned.

GDR writes:

I hope I don't too, and if it was legal at it would be a good thing for me in that case, but I still maintain that it would be a terrible thing overall for society.

Tangle writes:

Good for you but others can't be trusted? That's no way to run a society. Nor is it Christian.

We can go back again to choices. I might hope that it will be available for me at some point, but I contend that it is wrong for society so I would be making the selfish choice by campaigning to make it legal. Interesting that all of a sudden you are the one to decide what is Christian.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2019 2:58 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2019 11:51 AM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 360 of 418 (853903)
06-02-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by GDR
06-02-2019 10:12 AM


GDR writes:

Not as our final destination. Going to a spiritual heaven is Platonism not Christianity.

The point, of course, is that god, according to your belief, can create a place without suffering. So why build one with?

Actually I don't believe that He can in this life. In this life it would require the removal of free will, and entropy seems to be a consequence of 'the flow of time. However, I do believe that suffering and death are not part of the next life with the renewal of all things.

So why not cut out the temporary suffering crap? What is the point of torturing people like this? And then claim to love them? It's all just a pointless lie.

We can go back again to choices. I might hope that it will be available for me at some point, but I contend that it is wrong for society so I would be making the selfish choice by campaigning to make it legal.

You're a giant bag of paradoxes! It's wrong but you'd campaign for it?

Interesting that all of a sudden you are the one to decide what is Christian.

I'm just as much a Christian as you are. I was baptised a Christian, I have Christian values and know what the book says about it. I just reject the god bit like you reject the Garden of Eden etc bit. I'm a cultural Christian.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 10:12 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 6:17 PM Tangle has responded

  
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