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Author Topic:   If it can be, how can the "Absence of Evidence" be "Evidence of Absence?".
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3891 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 186 of 309 (535721)
11-17-2009 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by onifre
11-17-2009 1:20 PM


Re: Fine tuning is alive and well
So my question is...
Anything so finely tuned as the cosmological constants begs for an explanation of why it is so finely tuned. This explanation does not necessarily need to be teleological (which I though was your implication), but some sort of explanation is called for.
...what's your point?
Are you implying that something had to tune it to the degree it is, OR, that its the result of some deeper aspect of reality?
the apparent fine-tuning of the universe is interesting to me, but I have to face facts and say, personally, that I can no more call things "fine-tuned" than I can say that I know a god or gods do or do not exist.
Truth be told, if things weren't as they were, it's unlikely we'd be here to ask the question, so lacking an appropriately full view of the universe or multiverse or dirac foam brane or whatever you want to call the whole grand "it", I just have to be glad, I guess, that I can ask the question.
It's as empty to declare the universe fine-tuned as it is to say that there's an invisible pink unicorn in my garden or, indeed, a floating (maybe angry) beard in the sky who cares whether i eat shellfish or wear cotton-polyester-blend socks.
I think I can say, however, that the evidence of absence FOR the judeo-christian-islamic god (indeed, for almost all gods save perhaps FSM and Eris, but only because I have a soft spot for them - ewige blumenkraft) is, indeed, absence of their evidence.
world not 6000 years old. check. no flood. check. dinosaurs millions of years before man, ergo man not so special. check. earth not the centre of the universe. check. lack of a historical jesus. check. lack of evidence for all major supernatural occurences in the bible (i.e. ones that should leave evidence). check.
jury's in. verdict declared, in my books.
something ELSE that may or may not be qualified to be called a god or gods...well, that's another question.
Which one were we asking for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by onifre, posted 11-17-2009 1:20 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by onifre, posted 11-17-2009 3:42 PM greyseal has not replied

greyseal
Member (Idle past 3891 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 200 of 309 (535988)
11-19-2009 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by kbertsche
11-17-2009 11:08 PM


Re: Fine tuning is alive and well
Thus far, I've only stressed two points, which should be obvious and non-controversial:
actually, both of your two points are controversial in the extreme.
1) "Fine-tuning" is real. If a number of fundamental constants/laws of nature (notably the cosmological constant) were not fine-tuned to an incredible precision, life could not exist in the universe. Not just "life as we know it," but any sort of complex life at all.
That is, I believe, "confirmation bias"? Sorry, I don't know the terms.
You confuse the fact that life as we know is as we know it, with the universe being as it is specifically for life as we know it to be "life as we know it".
We're here - correct. The universe' make-up allows us to be here - correct. The "fact" that the universe was specifically fine tuned to be as it is? I don't think you can go that far.
Saying it is "fine tuned" implies that somebody or something did the fine-tuning. Saying it's fine-tuned implies it's not possible for it to happen "naturally".
I don't think your universe or multiverse creation skills are that good you can pronounce such a thing as quantified.
2) This fine tuning begs the question of "why?" It is certainly true that if the universe did not have the fine-tuning that it does, we would not be here. But this ducks the question of "why" rather than answering it.
no, there you're wrong too. It is not certainly true that the universe was fine-tuned - it's true that it is the way it is, but you haven't proven fine-tuning.
It's true that if things were different, we'd have a very different universe, but that's besides the point.
If we knew more about the universe, or the multiverse, and could say without a doubt that it is extremely unlikely for a universe like ours to exist...you'd still not have definitive proof of "fine tuning".
You'd have to either prove it impossible or find proof it was deliberately shaped.
Get back to us when you have

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by kbertsche, posted 11-17-2009 11:08 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

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