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Author Topic:   A fatal logical flaw in creationism?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 214 (94567)
03-24-2004 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by JonF
03-24-2004 6:24 PM


is this ID?
I am curious why admin leaves this in ID space. A fatal flaw in creationism is of no real concern to proper ID as the two are intrinsically incompatable.
(Not that ID is concerned with logic either)
{{{sits back and waits for flood ... }}}

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by HoonWoo, posted 03-25-2004 3:53 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 214 (94683)
03-25-2004 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by HoonWoo
03-25-2004 3:53 AM


What is ID?
Doesn't ID implies a creator?
Technically no. In practice yes. But that doesn't make it creationism.
Intelligent design - Wikipedia
ID itself does not specify the identity of the designer. The major promoters take pains to publicly separate it from religion and the biblical account of creation.
The designer could be the archtypical SciFi Horror Green Monster Drooling Spacecreature ...
The common usage of "creationism" in America is creation according to a literal interpretation of the bible ... which is not ID.
Creationism - Wikipedia
Creationism is a belief that the origin of the universe and everything in it is due to an event of creation brought about by the deliberate act of a creator god.
Most religions have significant creation myths, but 'creationism' in its modern form is associated with the religious tradition of conservative Christianity which includes members of many groups and denominations. Fundamentalists are credited as the originators of the movement, but Creationists are also Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Wesleyan/Holiness and conservatives of mainline Protestant churches, such as the Confessing Movements, and some Roman Catholics, Jews and many Muslims.
In ID the design process is ongoing -- a constant tweaking of the design if you will -- and does not confine itself to a single moment of creation. The fact that this makes it fundamentally incompatible with creationism seems to escape the attention of most proponents. And the fact that the "tweaking" must be done by supernatural action means that it is a faith ("Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.").
Even if the activating agent and the whole implementation process is purely natural (such as radiation causing mutation causing change over time with selection by survival and sounding a lot like evolution ... ) the belief of a designer behind the process is based on faith. Note that there is no fundamental incompatibility between ID and evolution.
See is ID properly pursued? (click) thread for more discussion on what ID (should not be and) is and (what it should be and) is not.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

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 Message 6 by HoonWoo, posted 03-25-2004 3:53 AM HoonWoo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Wounded King, posted 04-14-2004 7:38 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 214 (99549)
04-12-2004 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by gman
04-12-2004 8:59 PM


actually
By "bad designs"
usually means things like backwards facing retinas in humans, but forward facing for octopuses.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 17 of 214 (99927)
04-14-2004 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Wounded King
04-14-2004 7:38 AM


Re: What is ID?
proponents put forward the idea that the initial created organism/ organisms had preplanned potentialities within their genome
the problem with that is where a species branches into other species from the same set of instructions ... how can you get more than one result from the same script? (why are there still monkeys? ahahahaa)
this also assumes that all extinctions were pre-planned
is the name of the designer Loki?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Wounded King, posted 04-14-2004 7:38 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Wounded King, posted 04-14-2004 11:40 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 21 of 214 (99990)
04-14-2004 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Wounded King
04-14-2004 11:40 AM


Re: What is ID?
... in other words the process degenerates into purely evolutionary processes and the ID concept does not add anything of value to the mix ...
you probably have to be both omniscient and omnipotent to do so
OR the results are not predetermined and the whole thing is an experiment to find out ...
... which gets us back to purely {naturalistic \ scientific} processes and the ID concept does not add anything of value to the mix ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Wounded King, posted 04-14-2004 11:40 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Wounded King, posted 04-15-2004 5:04 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 214 (100191)
04-15-2004 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Wounded King
04-15-2004 5:04 AM


Re: What is ID?
works for me.
I'm surprised they are not all over dark matter and energy ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Wounded King, posted 04-15-2004 5:04 AM Wounded King has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 211 of 214 (102588)
04-25-2004 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Adminnemooseus
04-25-2004 4:40 AM


getting back on topic -- flaws in creationism
The last message that was close to being on topic that I could find was by loudmouth:
http://EvC Forum: A fatal logical flaw in creationism?
However, it seems that scientists aren't given the same respect. Instead, they are told that everything that scientists have discovered over the last 150 years is wrong. They are wrong not because of scientific reasons, but because people don't like the conclusions. This is my main source of frustration, showing evidence that is not in question to support a theory whose conclusion is disliked. I guess it would be easier to take the creationist route, start with a likeable conclusion.
I guess the moral for creationists is this. If you think evolution is wrong, then study biology and figure out where it is wrong. Studying the Bible for answers in science won't get you very far.
If you are going to show that science is wrong, it must be done on the same basis as the science used, and it must stand up to the scientific method. It must be repeatable, and all other causes of errors need to be eliminated by controlled experiments. Finally it must provide a basis for better understanding that resolves these problems.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-25-2004 4:40 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

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