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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 91 of 141 (743256)
11-29-2014 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
11-28-2014 11:06 AM


What Is Truth?
ringo writes:

I too would be happy to find it true - but it isn't.

What is truth?

Is truth providing a homeless man some food?

How about buying him a beer?

Is it true that some folks won't be helped by the beer and others would?

Is truth determined through facts? Evidence? Are there other ways to discern truth?


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 11-28-2014 11:06 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 11-29-2014 11:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 92 of 141 (743292)
11-29-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
11-28-2014 3:04 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Faith writes:

No ears to hear I guess.


Heard it, believed it, thought about it, realized it was bunk.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 11-28-2014 3:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 93 of 141 (743294)
11-29-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
11-29-2014 1:54 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat writes:

Is truth providing a homeless man some food?


The idea that we should provide a homeless man with food is more "truth" than anything you'll ever hear about gods, the afterlife, etc.

Phat writes:

How about buying him a beer?


Giving him the dignity of making his own decision is in the same ballpark as giving him food. If he got a little respect from other people, he might find some respect for himself and turn his own life around. So yes, give him the money and let him decide what to do with it.

Phat writes:

Is it true that some folks won't be helped by the beer and others would?


Most likely, yes, but we aren't always good at predicting which is which. When Safeway boots you out the door a year before retirement and you're looking for a new job, that CEO who interviews you might say, "Hey, I remember you. You gave me a dollar once when I was down and out. I spent it on beer but it gave me something to think about. It really changed my life."

It might take a thousand of us to have one turn out like that, but isn't it worth it?

Phat writes:

Is truth determined through facts? Evidence?Are there other ways to discern truth?


No.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 11-29-2014 1:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 11-29-2014 10:33 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 141 (743333)
11-29-2014 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
11-29-2014 11:01 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
So yes, give him the money and let him decide what to do with it.

Ringo, have you spent any actual time working with the homeless community? In the time I have spent doing so, I frequently wrestle with whether my actions are helping vs. enabling.

The well meaning platitude you offer here is close to worthless when applied to the homeless people I know. Your beer/food money isn't going to offer a homeless person a way to improve his position beyond the next few hours.

How often have you helped a homeless person by giving him a beer?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 11-29-2014 11:01 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by petrophysics1, posted 11-30-2014 2:54 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 97 by petrophysics1, posted 11-30-2014 3:51 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 11-30-2014 1:42 PM NoNukes has responded

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 141 (743348)
11-30-2014 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
11-29-2014 10:33 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Hi NoNukes,

Here are some people who actually understand "homeless people"

http://www.step13.org/index.php/en/

Step 13 has handed out tens of thousands of vouchers where you, as a homeless person, can come and get a free meal and work your way off the streets into a job. Last I heard they have never had a voucher turned in. They accept NO government money, so they actually do a good job with people who need help and aren't running the homeless scam.

The homeless scam:

Back in 1971 I had a friend in college Ed Chrissman, who told me what he did to get money was he went to downtown Buffalo and went up Main Street and then back down asking people for spare change so he could get something to eat. He told me he made $200 to $250 a run and this was at a time the minimum wage was $1.50 as I recall. Said he had to go into stores to change his coins for paper money as his pockets were full.

Amazing, at the time I worked and was making $5.00/hr or $40 a day, so in one day Ed could earn as much as I did in a week and pay no taxes on it.

Ed loved Thanksgiving and Christmas, as the saps like Ringo and Phat were out in full force.

Offer to take a homeless person to a restaurant and give them a good meal, they won't accept. The economics don't work, they loose their corner or sweet spot and they can make a lot more money staying there instead of killing 30 minutes or an hour with you.

Just so you know this only works in cities filled with Democrats.

And this is closer to the TRUTH than what Ringo and Phat think.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 11-29-2014 10:33 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 11-30-2014 3:38 AM petrophysics1 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 96 of 141 (743349)
11-30-2014 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by petrophysics1
11-30-2014 2:54 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
petrophysics writes:

Just so you know this only works in cities filled with Democrats.

Of course. Republicans hold on to their money. Go figure.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by petrophysics1, posted 11-30-2014 2:54 AM petrophysics1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by petrophysics1, posted 11-30-2014 4:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 11-30-2014 11:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 141 (743350)
11-30-2014 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
11-29-2014 10:33 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
NoNokes writes:

I frequently wrestle with whether my actions are helping vs. enabling.

So the "mark" has this psychological point of view.

How do we use this to get the greatest amount of work and money out of him without his knowing we are fucking him over..........so that in the end he is left with this same question.

I've seen the ways this is done, so why don't you tell us how they did it to you. Yes NoNukes, you know how they do this because it happened to you, otherwise you would not have used the word enabling.

Tell us about it.

Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 11-29-2014 10:33 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 5:42 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 141 (743351)
11-30-2014 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
11-30-2014 3:38 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat,

You can piss away all your money and work, as you chose.

Just don't come to me after you pissed away a college education and money you inherited and tell me you OWN a part of my work and will get it through the government using the force of arms.

Don't bother me, just write a check to your union so those guys can keep making 6 figures a year on you.

Doing nothing, going nowhere.....the story of a union member.

And that is the truth!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 11-30-2014 3:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 141 (743365)
11-30-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
11-30-2014 3:38 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Since I became a Christian most of my friends are Republicans and they are a very generous lot of people.

My solution to the problem of helping someone was always to get some food, maybe a sandwich and some fruit and a bottled drink, and sack it up and hand it to the guy sitting on the curb with a sign. I didn't know if he would use money to get drunk, I just figured if he was hungry it was better to give food than money. I might also include a note, or tell him how to get to the local mission where they'd feed him and put him up for a few days and counsel him toward getting work. Maybe my food was thrown away I don't know, but I have seen people rummaging through garbage cans so it probably did get eaten. A friend and I also made sandwiches and handed them out to people in the park, the sort of thing that city administrators object to now. Maybe it is sort of messy, there could be better ways of doing it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 11-30-2014 3:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 100 of 141 (743372)
11-30-2014 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
11-29-2014 10:33 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
NoNukes writes:

How often have you helped a homeless person by giving him a beer?


That's exactly my point: I don't know. Maybe never. Maybe forty times.

Call it my version of Pascal's wager if you like but I don't want to risk not helping somebody. I give a dollar to anybody who asks. Ask and ye shall receive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 11-29-2014 10:33 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 5:26 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 141 (743402)
11-30-2014 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
11-30-2014 1:42 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
That's exactly my point: I don't know.

In other words you are pretending to have a point. You are advising that giving out beer money might help boost self-esteem, but you actually have no reason or experience to share with us about any results.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 11-30-2014 1:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 12-01-2014 11:21 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 102 of 141 (743403)
11-30-2014 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by petrophysics1
11-30-2014 3:51 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
I frequently wrestle with whether my actions are helping vs. enabling.

petrophysics writes:

So the "mark" has this psychological point of view.

How do we use this to get the greatest amount of work and money out of him without his knowing we are fucking him over

Actually that's not my point of view at all. Yes there are scammers of the type you describe out there, but that's not what I or anyone else means when they talk about "enabling". I'm not concerned about being taken. I'm more concerned about futility.

What I'm talking about specifically is whether giving a hungry addict/mental case homeless person food or money actually does anything more than advance his addiction.

In my experience, whether you give an addict food or money, you risk simply enable them to continue their self-destructive behavior. The homeless people I encountered in Northern VA, were primarily the stubbornly homeless, i.e. people with criminal backgrounds, mental health issues, some sex offenders, almost all with drug and alcohol problems. They are among the least employable people you are likely to encounter. You aren't going to give them ten bucks and a handful of bus tokens and expect them to have jobs at the end of the day.

For whatever reason that people find themselves living in the woods in the dead of winter, the way out isn't easy for most. Neither your pocket change or a Subway sandwich is going to change their lives one iota. Most people are better off donating their money to professionals who work in the area, or donating their money to organizations that are going to interact with them.

I've tried to get involved with organizations that do this kind of work. I've donated money, driven vans full of homeless people to the laundromat, taken them to church among other things. But I've only seen a couple of homeless folks actually get off the streets for an extended period of time other than by dying.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by petrophysics1, posted 11-30-2014 3:51 AM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 103 of 141 (743448)
12-01-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
11-30-2014 5:26 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
NoNukes writes:

You are advising that giving out beer money might help boost self-esteem, but you actually have no reason or experience to share with us about any results.


I'm not "advising" anything; I'm pointing out why one approach might possibly have good results. And no, there is no way of following up on the results of every dollar I give away.

The do-gooder approach that you seem to advocate is fine too, as long as it isn't used to rationalize doing nothing.

Edited by ringo, : Rearranged negatives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 5:26 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 8:17 AM ringo has responded
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 12-02-2014 10:17 AM ringo has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 104 of 141 (743491)
12-01-2014 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
11-28-2014 1:18 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
So would you say that theists are interested in hope and seek faith whereas atheists are interested in reality and seek evidence?

That's a good description.

I would classify faith and hope as nearly the same thing. What theists seek out is a belief shared by others so that they can take comfort in sharing that belief. There is something to be said for being part of a community, and religions have been a part of communities from the very start. We often see christians say, "Do you think billions of christians could be wrong?". This is a bit of projection on their part, revealing that the popularity of a faith is what gives it credence instead of evidence.

Atheism is skepticism at its foundation. Atheists distrust ideas that are backed solely by faith and popularity. Atheists want to pull humans out of the equation in order to remove as much bias as possible. However, with theism it is impossible to remove humans from the equation since humans are the sole source of theism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 11-28-2014 1:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 141 (743541)
12-02-2014 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
12-01-2014 11:21 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
I'm not "advising" anything; I'm pointing out why one approach might possibly have good results.

Ringo writes:

Giving him the dignity of making his own decision is in the same ballpark as giving him food. If he got a little respect from other people, he might find some respect for himself and turn his own life around. So yes, give him the money and let him decide what to do with it.

That 'pointing out' would be advising or something close enough to it. In my experience your 'advice' is nonsense.

And no, there is no way of following up on the results of every dollar I give away.

I didn't ask you to follow up on every dollar you give away. But you can follow up if you see the same people repeatedly over a period of time. Don't put words like 'every dollar' in my mouth when in actuality you've never followed up.

The do-gooder approach that you seem to advocate is fine too, as long as it isn't used to rationalize doing nothing.

'Do gooder approach?'. As for doing nothing, no I'm not advocating that either.

Edited by NoNukes, : add quote from Ringo's advice.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 12-01-2014 11:21 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 12-02-2014 11:27 AM NoNukes has responded

  
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