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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 661 of 716 (807233)
05-01-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by Faith
05-01-2017 1:42 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
The connection is on the astronomy program. It's right there, the entire image, it isn't made up, it's exactly the image of the Revelation 12 woman, exactly, sun, moon stars, the works..

Absent the astrology, where is the woman? Do the stars in question look to you anything like a woman?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 1:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 662 of 716 (807234)
05-01-2017 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 1:54 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Sigh.

You can't "absent the astrology." The image, the fiction, the constellation, the imputed meaning, of Virgo as traced in the stars, on the day of Rosh Hashana in September of 3BC, is exactly described by the woman in Revelation 12.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 1:54 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 663 of 716 (807235)
05-01-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 1:54 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
This is getting funny.

Try again.

John had a vision of the astrological fiction of Virgo, the fictional image of Virgo, the traditionally imputed meaning of the fictional sign of Virgo, the imputed astrological meaning of the constellation of Virgo, as it appeared in relation to the sun and moon on Rosh Hashana 3 BC. There is no doubt that's what his vision was about. That fictional astrological character called Virgo on that day.

Let's see how many other ways this can be wacked up.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 1:54 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 3:11 PM Faith has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 664 of 716 (807236)
05-01-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 663 by Faith
05-01-2017 2:08 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
quote:
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


How much of the above did John see? Where are the birth pains?

quote:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


What about this stuff?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 2:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 6:26 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 665 of 716 (807248)
05-01-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 664 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 3:11 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

How much of the above did John see? Where are the birth pains?

I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because on that date the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision.

I assume John saw everything he described, it doesn't all have to be literally in the stars.

Larson first decided that date was Jesus' birth, then decided maybe the conception. If the birth the birth pangs are of course implicit.

ABE: As I pointed out in a few posts, the moon at her feet represents her child, the question is whether the new moon represents birth or conception. The reason Larson decided probably conception is that he found the bright "star" nine months later. /ABE

Since understanding that the woman represents an astrological sign I've wondered about the dragon. There's a dragon among the (non-Zodiac) constellations it could be referring to, but that's not part of the Star presentation. abe: I have a "star chart" somewhere that shows the constellations but can't find it at the moment. /abe

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 3:11 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 7:21 PM Faith has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 666 of 716 (807252)
05-01-2017 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by Faith
05-01-2017 6:26 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision.

You cannot get there. Again what it seems you want to do is to link about an astrological dream to real astronomy so you can date the birth of Christ. Heck, you even believe that you can identify conception.

I think there are several problems.

1) a dream can easily be prophecy without reflecting an astronomical event at all. The story is the important part.
2) astrology is just made up stories about myths. The connection of that to real world events is completely bogus. At least that is my take on things. Obviously, the Chaldean's believed differently.
3) the connection being pushed here is superficial and apparently limited to small parts of the text.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 6:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 7:45 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 667 of 716 (807258)
05-01-2017 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 617 by Faith
04-30-2017 12:26 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It has to make you ask why scripture is referring to this random bunch of stars in terms that accept its status as a constellation depicting a woman called Virgo which is rising with the sun, with the new moon of Rosh Hashana at its "feet." It's in "heaven" and associated with twelve stars. This is no mere coincidence, NN.

Perhaps the author was familiar with the Zodiac and knew what they were looking at? Then, the details of the imagery in the Bible being artistic?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 12:26 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 668 of 716 (807311)
05-02-2017 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 666 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 7:21 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision.

You cannot get there. Again what it seems you want to do is to link about an astrological dream to real astronomy so you can date the birth of Christ. Heck, you even believe that you can identify conception.

I don't have any motivations about dating anything. I saw the Bethlehem Star video, finally concluded he made some important discoveries about the Star and related events in Christ's life and death, encountered a mountain of objections here and have been trying to make a case for what was discovered by Larson because I found it credible.

Not a big thing to date the conception since it would have presumably been the result of the Annunciation. So it depends on whether the crescent moon signifies the birth or the conception, that's all. I think the other phenomena associated with that Rosh Hashana point to the conception. But I'm not particularly arguing for any particular date even though I think Larson's are well evidenced.

This discussion is simply about the objections to the Bible's apparently referencing an astrological sign. I get the reason for the objections, but I also find them bullheaded after the evidence has been made so clear.

I think there are several problems.

1) a dream can easily be prophecy without reflecting an astronomical event at all. The story is the important part.

Of course, but in this case the evidence points to the astronomical event. And it was a vision, not a dream.

2) astrology is just made up stories about myths. The connection of that to real world events is completely bogus. At least that is my take on things. Obviously, the Chaldean's believed differently.

None of this is relevant as long as it is only too clear that John's vision was of an astrological sign. So it's a myth, so it is nevertheless attached to a grouping of stars called Virgo and that's what he saw. I didn't make this up, it appears to be what he saw.

The connection being pushed here is superficial and apparently limited to small parts of the text.

The Star study was about the Star. In the process of searching for it on the astronomy program Larson turned up an unexpected astrological correspondence with the scripture. He wasn't looking for it, it is there, and related to the birth and death of Christ. He wasn't studying the Book of Revelation or any other part of the scripture that might also entail astrological symbols for all I know. He found what he found, it's objectively there, superficial or not.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 7:21 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2017 8:07 AM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15624
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 669 of 716 (807313)
05-02-2017 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 668 by Faith
05-02-2017 7:45 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Well, let's address Revelation 12

First this is supposed to be a "great wonder" and I don't see how the sun being in Virgo, with the moon at her "feet" qualifies. So the actual content of the vision is likely different.

Second, the woman is described as giving birth, so I can't see how it can be considered a sign of anything else.

Third, if the woman is a constellation how can she hide in the desert ? And what can the events after that mean ? I think that the idea that the original appearance is pure astrological symbolism is questionable unless the rest can also be explained in those terms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 7:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 673 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 12:48 PM PaulK has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17646
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 670 of 716 (807340)
05-02-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 658 by Faith
05-01-2017 1:42 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:

The connection is on the astronomy program. It's right there, the entire image, it isn't made up, it's exactly the image of the Revelation 12 woman, exactly, sun, moon stars, the works.


Hello? The constellation itself is made up. Somebody imagined that a particular group of stars looked like a woman.

If you have a vision of Long John Silver, that doesn't prove he's real.

If you see a fat man with a white beard, you'll think of Santa Claus whether you believe in Santa Claus or not. The connection doesn't make either the fictional character or the vision real.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 1:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 12:35 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17646
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 671 of 716 (807341)
05-02-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
05-01-2017 1:53 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:

So John had a vision of this fictional astrological woman. It happens to be describable in the same terms as his vision.


Of course. Why can't he have a vision of something he can describe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 1:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 672 of 716 (807350)
05-02-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by ringo
05-02-2017 11:41 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Ringo ringo ringo. Sigh.

The contellations are made up, but oddly enough they are treated as objective realities. Even on the astronomy program the constellation of Virgo is a particular group of stars that is assigned the characteristics of a woman. It's really quite irrelevant that it's all made up because it is something people can actually point to in the sky. When the constellation Virgo is shown rising in the sky on the astronomy program in the Star film, on Rosh Hashana 3 BC, it is CALLED "Virgo," and it WAS "clothed with the sun and with the moon at her feet."

The whole sky is marked out with constellations made up of particular groups of stars given names of mythical figures. It doesn't matter that it's all made up because the star figures don't change, they are always the same, they always designate the same characters, they are all treated as separate constellations that can be identified separately. They may differ from culture to culture but they are what they are in a given culture.

ABE: SO, once a constellation, a particular group of stars, is recognized as having a particular character and identity it becomes part of a person's picture of the sky, so it is quite possible for John to have had a vision of the particular constellation of Virgo with the character of a woman rising with the sun and with the moon at her feet.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by ringo, posted 05-02-2017 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by ringo, posted 05-02-2017 12:52 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 675 by Tangle, posted 05-02-2017 12:56 PM Faith has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 673 of 716 (807352)
05-02-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 669 by PaulK
05-02-2017 8:07 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It's always possible to demand that something should have other characteristics than it has, to the point that you can utterly ignore the characteristics it does have as insufficient by your exacting standards. The fact is that the actual phenomenon, the woman in Revelation 12, fits the description of Virgo on a particular date, doesn't disappear when you insist it be something other than it is, but I guess you can make it disappear for yourself at least, and do a good job of confusing other people with it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2017 8:07 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2017 12:58 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17646
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 674 of 716 (807353)
05-02-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by Faith
05-02-2017 12:35 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:

The contellations are made up, but oddly enough they are treated as objective realities.


By whom? Is the cloud that looks like a duckie treated as an objective reality too?

Faith writes:

When the constellation Virgo is shown rising in the sky on the astronomy program in the Star film, on Rosh Hashana 3 BC, it is CALLED "Virgo," and it WAS "clothed with the sun and with the moon at her feet."


Other cultures see a different image and CALL it something else.

Faith writes:

SO, once a constellation is recognized as having a particular character and identity it becomes part of a person's picture of the sky, so it is quite possible for John to have had a vision of the particular constellation of Virgo with the character of a woman rising with the sun and with the moon at her feet.


That's what I'm saying. He wouldn't have had a vision of something he had never seen. He would naturally associate his vision with something he knew about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 12:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 675 of 716 (807354)
05-02-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by Faith
05-02-2017 12:35 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:

The whole sky is marked out with constellations made up of particular groups of stars given names of mythical figures.

This makes me laugh....the contellations are made up of stars that have absolutely no relationship with each other. They were described by people who didn't know this.

quote:
Constellations can be a useful way to help identify positions of stars in the sky. Constellations have imaginary boundaries formed by "connecting the dots" and all the stars within those boundaries are labeled with the name of that constellation. However, keep in mind that constellations are not real objects; they are just patterns as seen from our observation point on Earth. The patterns we see are for the most part just by chance. The individual stars in a constellation may appear to be very close to each other, but in fact they can be separated by huge distances in space and have no real connection to each other at all. For example, look at the image below of the stars which make up the constellation Orion. The stars in this easily-observed constellation are at VERY different distances from Earth!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 12:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
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