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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 676 of 762 (864599)
10-13-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 674 by jar
10-13-2019 10:52 AM


Re: on trust
That is a silly question with no meaning or content Phat.
Oh, stop. You know what I mean. You will ask me what the evidence shows, and I will be unable to prove that anything spiritual can be anything but speculative and that all of the evidence shows that humans are the only common denominator that can bring about change...and thus by conclusion, *we will create the world that we want.*

I am beginning to foresee your probable arguments. See, I even framed the issue for you.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 10:52 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4731
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 677 of 762 (864603)
10-13-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by Thugpreacha
10-13-2019 10:49 AM


Re: on trust
So AZPaul, do you believe in humanity?

Oh, of course not. One doesn't need to "believe" in reality.

Do I believe in the goodness of humanity? In its evil? In the intellect and the stupidity, the drive and the apathy of humanity?

Same answer.

Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Both.

Agreed.

Are we better off with or without organized religion?

Without.

Not that much would change. We would just acknowledge more realistic reasons for our hate instead of the superstitious bs we so often use today.

Is it harmful to believe in Jesus? Is Jesus a reality or a fantasy?

We don't know if your Jesus was real or a conglomerate or a fantasy. I happen to suspect that he was real but wasn't anything even close to who was portrayed. I suspect he was just another run-of-the-mill religious megalomaniac who didn't do/say any of the things his zealous followers allege. Like David Koresh, Abraham and Joel Osteen.

Yes, it is alway harmful to let fantasies control your life.

Need this topic---as to whether the world is getting better or worse---involve religion and belief?

It has its place in the discussion. Heavy on the "worse" side.

I predict that belief will never go away and will, in times of adversity, actually grow stronger ...

Stupidstition is like toothpaste, you can't put it back into the tube and throw it away. Religion has dug its poisoned claws into the human psyche and I fear you may be right. The best we can hope to do is belittle its adherents in hopes of limiting its reach.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 10:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 3:43 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 682 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 3:46 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 678 of 762 (864606)
10-13-2019 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Thugpreacha
10-12-2019 10:12 PM


Re: on trust
Phat writes:

I only stop at the red lights because I am rendering unto Caesar that jurisdiction which is Caesars.


That's false. You stop at red lights because you've seen the evidence that going through red lights causes collisions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-12-2019 10:12 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 3:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 679 of 762 (864608)
10-13-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 678 by ringo
10-13-2019 2:15 PM


Re: on trust
OK, but your analogy is weak. You claim that I offer special status only to matters concerning God. Guilty. So what? God is worthy of exemption to critical thought...precisely because I will argue that humans don't create Him...so stop acting as if you do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 678 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 2:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 3:44 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 690 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 4:44 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 680 of 762 (864609)
10-13-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 12:12 PM


the Internyet.
AZ writes:

Religion has dug its poisoned claws into the human psyche and I fear you may be right. The best we can hope to do is belittle its adherents in hopes of limiting its reach.

I welcome honest criticism. If I only hung out at Christian Forums my faith and apologetic arguments would be very weak. As is, they are still weaker than I want them to be, but I will take reality as it is and commune with you guys as long as I feel that this is my place on the internet. Keep disagreeing or we will have nothing to talk about.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 12:12 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 681 of 762 (864610)
10-13-2019 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by Thugpreacha
10-13-2019 3:38 PM


Re: on trust
Phat writes:

God is worthy of exemption to critical thought...


Why?

Why is your favorite God character different from the ones you think are made up?

Phat writes:

... I will argue that humans don't create Him...


You keep asserting that. Where's the actual argument?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 3:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 3:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 682 of 762 (864611)
10-13-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 12:12 PM


Re: on trust
We don't know if your Jesus was real or a conglomerate or a fantasy. I happen to suspect that he was real but wasn't anything even close to who was portrayed.
I think that many here would agree with you. My only objection to that argument is that I believe that GOD used Jesus as His human character to commune with humanity. Critics will say it only represents human attempts at anthropomorphizing a Deity. But how else would humans be able to even know God? I do believe that the premise is logical, given that God exists.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 12:12 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 683 of 762 (864612)
10-13-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 681 by ringo
10-13-2019 3:44 PM


Casting Our Vote
ringo writes:

Why is your favorite God character different from the ones you think are made up?

One must stand for something or they will fall for anything. The main difference between you and I is that you became an eternal skeptic, satisfied only through objective evidence. You simply went to the voting booth and refused to push any of the levers, awaiting further evidence. I chose to push a lever. Perhaps I will argue that God found me. You will again and forever ask how I could justify making a decision....citing the idea that many candidates remain and that even the option of choosing none of them seems more logical for you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 3:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 3:58 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 684 of 762 (864613)
10-13-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 683 by Thugpreacha
10-13-2019 3:50 PM


Re: Casting Our Vote
Phat writes:

One must stand for something or they will fall for anything.


Silly bumper sticker. It's better to stand for nothing than the wrong thing.

Phat writes:

You will again and forever ask how I could justify making a decision....


I'm not asking you to justify making "a" decision. I'm asking you why you made the decision you made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 3:50 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 685 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 4:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 685 of 762 (864615)
10-13-2019 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 684 by ringo
10-13-2019 3:58 PM


For Better Or Worse
The New Yorker Magazine published this column recently:
Are Things Getting Better Or Worse?

quote:
Most historical and statistical evidence shows that life used to be shorter, sicker, poorer, more dangerous, and less free. Yet many people, like Milanović, have fond memories of bygone years and wonder if reports of their awfulness have been exaggerated. Others concede that life used to be worse in some ways, but wonder if it wasn’t also better in others—simpler, more predictable, more spiritual. It’s common to appreciate modernity while fearing its destructive potential. (Life expectancy may be higher today, but it will be shorter after the nuclear-climate-bioterror apocalypse.) If being alive now doesn’t feel particularly great, perhaps living in the past might not have felt particularly bad.

ringo writes:

I'm not asking you to justify making "a" decision. I'm asking you why you made the decision you made.

It started because of that one day in church when I suddenly felt different than I ever had felt before. Im under no delusion that believers are better people than unbelievers. My jury is still out whether God saves only a select group. All that I can say is that I felt like choosing God represented that day and I chose. Is there any reason why I should question that decision? Is there any reason you think that I made the wrong decision? I have questioned myself also, and so far have found no compelling reasons to change. I don't see any better candidates out there, and I honestly feel that if I were to consciously unchoose God that I would be any better off. Personally I think it would expose my deep-seated fears relevant to my own life and would force me to rely on humanistic psychotherapy...at great cost...to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. I think I'm better off choosing to trust that God is alive and real in my heart, soul, and mind.

At the risk of exposing confirmation bias, which I certainly don't want as an accusation, is that I have seen countless times when I felt better after prayer and communion with other believers...a phenomenon that I simply don't feel with any random group of people.

It has been my observation that some people feel this rush at a football game, but I am not so shallow to believe that a Broncos victory makes life in Denver better for a week.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 684 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 3:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 4:13 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 686 of 762 (864616)
10-13-2019 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 685 by Thugpreacha
10-13-2019 4:05 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

... one day in church when I suddenly felt different than I ever had felt before.


There's the bias right there. If you were in the habit of going to mosques or Buddhist temples or synagogues or Mormon churches, your interpretation would have been quite different.

Phat writes:

Is there any reason why I should question that decision?


Of course there is. You should question every decision if you have the slightest interest in making the right decision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 685 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 4:05 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 687 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 4:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 687 of 762 (864617)
10-13-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 686 by ringo
10-13-2019 4:13 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Note my football analogy in my edited post.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 4:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 688 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 4:17 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 688 of 762 (864618)
10-13-2019 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 687 by Thugpreacha
10-13-2019 4:14 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

It has been my observation that some people feel thus rush at a football game, but I am not so shallow to believe that a Broncos victory makes life in Denver better for a week.


So again, you look at the objective evidence in that context. Why do you scoff at evidence in the context of God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 4:14 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 689 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 4:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 689 of 762 (864619)
10-13-2019 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 688 by ringo
10-13-2019 4:17 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Why do you scoff at evidence in the context of God?
It is not objective. We all never agree. What may be evident to me is not evident for everyone. Do you think that it has to be evident for everyone or is this even realistic? After all, even the Bible says that many are called and few are chosen. Perhaps in that scenario evidence was only evident for some and not all. But then again, wouldn't that make God biased?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 688 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 4:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 11:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 690 of 762 (864621)
10-13-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by Thugpreacha
10-13-2019 3:38 PM


Re: on trust
Phat writes:

God is worthy of exemption to critical thought...precisely because I will argue that humans don't create Him...so stop acting as if you do.

Why is God worthy of of critical thought?

Humans didn't create pond scum so is that exempt from critical thought?

Humans did not create stars so are stars exempt from critical thought?

Humans did not create milaria so is malaria exempt from critical thought?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 3:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 4:55 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
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