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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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24 But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. You can’t seriously be claiming that all of this is just a turn of phrase like raining cats and dogs..... And it goes on in similar vein for several passages talking about famine, earthquakes etc. I know you think you have explained all this away by cross referencing passages, stating that he’s flitting between two different subjects etc. etc. But it really isn’t credible to dismiss this as hyperbole or fanciful phraseology in the way that you are doing just because it would be problematic if read as is. Its too explicit and there’s too much of it to just be comparable to raining cats and dogs.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I am absolutely lost as to why you think treating faith as evidence will lead to conclusions that are correct about things unseen when that demonstrably fails so spectacularly when applied to anything we can actually check.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
quote: straggler writes:
You can't take a 21st century style of writing and automatically apply it to a very different time and culture. Once again, that language reads very much like Isaiah 13:10 where it is being applied to great earthly upheaval as a result of war. Again, looks how that passage starts. You can’t seriously be claiming that all of this is just a turn of phrase like raining cats and dogs..... And it goes on in similar vein for several passages talking about famine, earthquakes etc. I know you think you have explained all this away by cross referencing passages, stating that he’s flitting between two different subjects etc. etc. But it really isn’t credible to dismiss this as hyperbole or fanciful phraseology in the way that you are doing just because it would be problematic if read as is. Its too explicit and there’s too much of it to just be comparable to raining cats and dogs.quote:Look at what He is advising them to do. He's telling them to go to the mountains, leave possessions behind, don't even take your coat. He is saying get out of Dodge just as quick as you can and hope you don't have to deal with winter weather. If it is meant as an end times prophesy they obviously wouldn't be any better off hiding out in the hills than they would be at home. He is obviously talking about a military invasion with the same sort of language used by Isaiah (13:10) to describe destruction from war. Also in the passage I just quoted He refers to these passages in Daniel 9.quote:Jesus very obviously is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem. I have already shown you in Daniel 7 where it talks about one like a son of man being presented to the Father and given dominion over the Kingdom. When this destruction happens they will understand what Jesus was talking about and know that He is the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7, explaining the last 2 verses of your original quote. You cannot take a passage like this and understand it using a 21st century POV. Again, it is a very different world and culture with it's own styles and idioms.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: It is all language that refers to great human tragedy and political upheaval. It's language very clearly referring to the end of times and the return of the prophet. It says so in terms. It couldn't be clearer. The ONLY reason you are fighting the obvious is because it blows everything you believe out of the water.
as does everyone. You have concluded that there isn't enough evidence for a deity so you come to your conclusion that such an entity doesn't exist. Neither of us know that we are right. I'm not believing or disbelieving anything, I'm reading the words in your book and showing them to you.
They were compiled from earlier material and I believe that it is more likely that they used the same material rather than copying each other. There is absolutely no evidence of that. Pretty much all scholars accept that two of the four authors - whoever they were - had Mark's stuff in front of them when they wrote their. Between 50 and 75% has been copied.
Also you seem to agree that they are compilations from earlier material whether it be written or oral. It had to come from somewhere, but no one actually knows because nothing was written. Maybe Mark invented the entire thing based on a concatonation of previous myths and stories.
is hardly going to give them a sense of being delivered from their troubles if they didn't believe what they were saying was true. Yes, there were other messianic movements that ended when the leaders were put to death. Your points make absolutely zero sense. So tell me why people believed that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse and didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. That makes no sense to you either, why does it to millions of others? Why do you think that beliefs need to make sense? The people needed to believe that they would be saved from their troubles. They were primitive, superstitious people that could be persuaded by charismatic speakers these things are easily exploited. Even today.
Interestingly enough the Quaran speaks about the virgin birth of Jesus, reveres Him as a prophet and says that He performed many miracles. It does not see as "Son of God" nor do they believe in His resurrection. The Jews do see him as a prophet. The Jews essentially see Jesus as a false prophet which in some ways is interesting as Jesus didn't see Himself as starting a new religion but as a reformer of Judaism. Well yes, that's what I said. What they don't believe is the thing that makes you a Christian and not a Jew or a Muslim, that Christ ressurected. Why not? They were there.
Obviously not everyone had contact with the resurrected Jesus and as it wasn't anything that they would have expected of a messianic movement. Also it would be accepted at a personal cost, it isn't at all surprising that the majority didn't accept it. The obvious and glaring reason was that the prophecy was not fulfilled as promised. Not in their generation. Simple.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Look a biblical predicted end of times within a generation that didn’t happen would be hugely problematic for any Christian unwilling to just accept it as failed prediction.
I’ve seen various strategies employed to get round this. Many redefine the term ‘generation’. Example1 or Example2 You have chosen instead to claim that Jesus is talking about 2 separate things at the same time, to play linguistic gymnastics with the words used and to invoke other passages in the bible in a bout of cross referencing justification. Do what you need to do I guess....
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: What can't I explain? Back up the thread you admitted that not only could you not explain God's genocides but your other great hero Pokinghorne can't either.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
I doubt it. Even today, you and Phat don't know what evidence means.
... they certainly knew what evidence in the ordinary sense meant anyway. Faith writes:
In other words, it isn't evidence.
Faith is evidence for things that CAN'T be evidenced in any other way because they are invisible or otherwise something beyond our personal ability to experience. Faith writes:
Such as unicorns, leprechauns, etc. If you "simply believe" without any real evidence, your "reality" is open to any kind of made-up nonsense. But if you simply believe, as Jesus says we are to do, all sorts of hitherto unknown realities open up to us.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
The point is that the 1st century Jew would not have agreed with your interpretation. The point was that a 1st century Jew would have understood the language of stars fallong etc.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes:
It very clearly isn't. How do you explain the whole issue about heading to the hills etc. Why would you do that if it is about end times. How do you explain the similar language in Isaiah where it is about the Babylonians. You just keep saying that it has to be about end times without showing why you think I'm wrong and don't respond to why it isn't about that at all.
It's language very clearly referring to the end of times and the return of the prophet. It says so in terms. It couldn't be clearer. The ONLY reason you are fighting the obvious is because it blows everything you believe out of the water. Tangle writes: You sound like Faith saying that the Bible has to be read as we understand the language now. You want it both ways. If you are arguing with Faith it's nonsense to read it as inerrant and you argue with me as if that's the only way to understand it.
I'm not believing or disbelieving anything, I'm reading the words in your book and showing them to you. Tangle writes: Well there's no evidence one way or the other. It could be they had Mark but it is also possible that they were compiled from the same sources.
There is absolutely no evidence of that. Pretty much all scholars accept that two of the four authors - whoever they were - had Mark's stuff in front of them when they wrote their. Between 50 and 75% has been copied. Tangle writes: As I have pointed out, there is no motive for him to do that.
It had to come from somewhere, but no one actually knows because nothing was written. Maybe Mark invented the entire thing based on a concatonation of previous myths and stories. Tangle writes: Mohammed actually had achieved political and military and his followers were looking for more of the same.
So tell me why people believed that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse and didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. That makes no sense to you either, why does it to millions of others? Why do you think that beliefs need to make sense? The people needed to believe that they would be saved from their troubles. They were primitive, superstitious people that could be persuaded by charismatic speakers these things are easily exploited. Even today. Tangle writes: Not everyone were witnesses and there was still the opposition to Jesus from virtually every group with power in the country.
Well yes, that's what I said. What they don't believe is the thing that makes you a Christian and not a Jew or a Muslim, that Christ resurrected. Why not? They were there. Tangle writes: It was in 70 AD. Also, as I mentioned earlier I don't see the prophesy as something Jesus knew supernaturally anyway, It was from understanding His world at the time. The obvious and glaring reason was that the prophecy was not fulfilled as promised. Not in their generation. Simple.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: He is explaining the connection between the two.
You have chosen instead to claim that Jesus is talking about 2 separate things at the same time, to play linguistic gymnastics with the words used and to invoke other passages in the bible in a bout of cross referencing justification.Straggler writes: I'm just looking for truth as are you. Do what you need to do I guess....He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I did explain it. The Israelite leaders wanted more land and more power and so they invoked Yahweh's name to justify it. It isn't that hard.
Back up the thread you admitted that not only could you not explain God's genocides but your other great hero Pokinghorne can't either.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: That would be wrong. That is how they used language. As I said several times you can go back to Isaiah 13 where similar language is used regarding the Babylonians.
The point is that the 1st century Jew would not have agreed with your interpretation.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You don't have to go back to Isaiah. You can ask your Jewish neighbour. Judaism has never taken your idea of a Messiah seriously. As I said several times you can go back to Isaiah 13 where similar language is used regarding the Babylonians.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes:
To be nearer God? Who knows, you book is full of these contradictions.
How do you explain the whole issue about heading to the hills etc. Why would you do that if it is about end times. How do you explain the similar language in Isaiah where it is about the Babylonians. It doesn't matter where else it is
You just keep saying that it has to be about end times without showing why you think I'm wrong and don't respond to why it isn't about that at all. I don't have to explain anything in your book, if I do that I'm simply reinterpreting to suit myself. All I have to do is show you the words which as plain as day are all about something global and enormous and imminent and which is impossible not to mean the end times. And quite plainly that's how they were seen at the time.
You sound like Faith saying that the Bible has to be read as we understand the language now. There's nothing in the language then or now that needs to be read any other way. It's not nuanced, it's not ambiguous it's very straightforward and easily understood.
You want it both ways. If you are arguing with Faith it's nonsense to read it as inerrant and you argue with me as if that's the only way to understand it. You're not listening. I'm pointing out to both of you that it's all a pile of made up nonsense.
Well there's no evidence one way or the other. It could be they had Mark but it is also possible that they were compiled from the same sources. There's no evidence of any prior written document. That's the end of it. All that's known is that the others replay what is in Mark.
It was in 70 AD. It was NOT. The events used by Jesus have not happen at any time from the beginning of time to now. Reread them.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: What does that have to do with the subject ? You don't have to go back to Isaiah. You can ask your Jewish neighbour. Judaism has never taken your idea of a Messiah seriously.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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