I believe some of what you do and disagree with some.
jar writes:
I'm a believer. Even more, I am a life long Christian believer.
But I also understand that I am a life long Christian believer because I was born into a Christian family, raised in a Christian society and educated in a Christian school.
I understand that it is a path not a "TRUTH".
I understand that my belief is not reasonable, rational or logical.
I understand that had I not been born into a Christian family, raised in a Christian society and educated in a Christian school I might still be a believer but in a whole different set of beliefs and paths.
I'm a believer. Having been born and raised in a Christian family, raised in a Christian/Secular society and educated in a public school, I was taught about God through the lens of my upbringing. and of the values and teachings of the United Methodist church that I attended sporadically while young.
I never became aware of claiming to be a believer until after I accepted Jesus into my heart in a ceremony which it could be argued through the lens of an outsider was simply symbolic. For me, however, it was when I actually became a Christian. I met Jesus. (Or technically, the Holy Spirit.) It was not a bad burrito. It was not the brainwashing of a cult nor the hyper emotionalism that a young girl or boy mighyt get at a Beatles concert or any other hyper-emotional event. The change was immediate, ongoing, and permanent. I came to EvC Forum ten years after my salvation experience and have been challenged, questioned, and at times even ridiculed and mocked. To your credit, you have only openly challenged the CCoI (we both named them at one time years ago.) I spent many a day pulling up a stump and setting a spell with you in particular.
I believe though cannot prove that I am a Christian believer because of my salvation/communion experience with a God Who is eternally alive and Who is not automatically "in" everybody. He is simply with all of us and only becomes in us when we publicly and willfully seek such a communion.
I understand that my belief is not reasonable, rational or logical.(to others at least) There are many questions and challenges against my particular belief and many of you here at EvC have raised and continue to raise them.
Unlike you, I consider my belief to be both a path and a received TRUTH. I have learned not to push this onto others apart from my simple defense and increasing understanding of it.
I understand and believe that had I not been born into a United Methodist/Masonic/secular thinking family here in the West, I may or may not have had the same basic beliefs which I now have. They likely would differ, but not so far as to simply embrac e another religion. There may be many paths up the mountain, but there is One character of God at the top, and He interacts with each seeker in a unique way. Thus we differ in our expression of our understanding.
Edited by Phat, : ten years not one
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I don't quite understand what you mean, kjsimons. It seems to me that the "evidence" is not objective (accessible to everyone) and thus likely not to be defined as evidence at all. Call it personal experience. Call it persuasive acceptance. For some it is acceptance of One God and only One. For others, it is a tacit acceptance of "many gods." For still others, it is but an amusing and ongoing argument of terminology, logic, and definition. Perhaps it was meant to be that there would never be objective evidence, for this then would allow everyone a forced pass into the club and perhaps God wanted only those who wanted to be in the club have the opportunity to be so.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I understand and believe that had I not been born into a United Methodist/Masonic/secular thinking family here in the West, I may or may not have had the same basic beliefs which I now have. They likely would differ, but not so far as to simply embrace another religion.
bold emphasis mine.
Oh, you most probably would. You would have had the same say in your choice of religious acculturation there as you went through here. None at all. Religion is a cultural inheritance as powerful and penetrating as a genetic one.
You grew up in this culture. Even before your conversion you were primed to "belief" for Christian, Da Flag and girls with big knockers. The American way. Then fell into a specific cult (American Christian Woo-Woo Church: Demons, Devils and Ghosts Believers' Branch, Reformed) for personal emotional reasons.
There is a reason there are so many more Christians in Denver than in Riyadh.
First, Happy Pi Day! to all the hardcore STEM nerds out there.
I promised some folk a double down on a favored video character. Here is the double barrel, but you can’t claim too much boredom cuz they’re short.
In these two, they are a matched pair, our favorite Mister takes on the apologetics of a young evangelical YouTuber.
Suffering, evil and free will surface most often. Why didn’t god just do heaven and skip the evil-blood-suffering-on-Earth thing?
Cameron, the apologist, just picks fantasies out of his, uh, head to answer. One of my favorites was evil, suffering, blood and death were necessary for character development. Say what?
Conclusion. The conclusion is not hard to guess. Religion is stupid.
Cameron, the apologist, just picks fantasies out of his, uh, head to answer. One of my favorites was evil, suffering, blood and death were necessary for character development.
Because for one thing a mountain range analogy implies many "Gods". I feel that Monotheism is better than either pantheism, polytheism, dualism or the old standby of Monism.Hopefully I wont have to explain why.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Oh, please explain away. Why is monotheism superior to these others? Especially since history and logic suggest they are each equal facets of the same thing ... irrational superstition.
heaven is still going to have a )free will and b) no sin but then why in the world didn't god just start us out in heaven? like what is the point of all of this suffering and moral evil on earth?
(Mr.Deity) Well first of all for as long as i can remember theists have been telling me that free will is the reason for evil...god has to allow us to freely choose good over evil even though he knew exactly what we would choose
This is also one of Tangles arguments aginst the irationality of there being a God. Anything I say is going to sound as if I am simply making it all up and to be fair, I am. I am making up an answer that I would give Mr. Deity.
Which is: God created the possibility of evil or, as Mr.Deity puts it, the ongoing freedom to have the right to be independent even in Heaven. ringo often asks what is so wrong with keeping the freedom to disagree with God even while still lobbying for the idea that everyone has a place in Heaven (even if they are rebels. My response is why limit your personal idea of Gods character to the fixed characters in the books? Im thinking that you guys dont understand how real God is to me. You are of course free to label it a fantasy or a delusion.
AZPaul3 writes:
If your invasive destructive god did as you say he did it would be written on the heavens. It isn't.
First off, you are trying to define the God I worship and know (or think I know) in MY head. Yet you have already judged this God to be invasive and destructive. No wonder you could never let Him into your heart and mind even assuming for the sake of argument He DID exist. And the lot of you think the same way. Of course you all claim to belong to the rational group. (I will edit this later)
Full Transcript writes:
I've been seeing a lot of Cameron from the capturing Christianity channel lately he's debated or made videos about some of my buddies and comrades so i started watching his videos
i'm going to be on his arguments a bit here actually quite a bit but i want to be clear right up front...I kind of like this cat he seems like a good guy he's genuine sincere and the reason i'm making this video he's obviously an intelligent articulate person which is why the title of this video makes me so sad but let's get to it so the objection goes like this heaven is still going to have A) free will and B)no sin
but then why in the world didn't god just start us out in heaven like what is the point of all of this suffering and moral evil on earth?.. well first of all for as long as i can remember theists have been telling me that free will is the reason for evil god has to allow us to freely choose good over evil even though he he knew exactly what we would choose to don't expect this stuff to make sense if there's no sin in heaven what kind of freedom are we going to have i can choose between doing this good thing and doing this other good thing if i can't choose some sinful thing i want and I'll still have a sinful nature Jesus saves us from sin but clearly doesn't change our sinful nature then in what sense am i free to choose?
I'm clearly only free to choose good that's not free will which again I've been told is the entire reason for evil in the first place Jesus said that lusting after a woman in your heart is adultery that's a top tier top 10 sin am i not going to be able to lust after all the beautiful perfected women in heaven if not how do i have free will if i take pascal's wager as many a christian has recommended and get into heaven without really believing or liking god am i free not to worship him and can i still think he's and if not i'm not free!
I don't know what the hell Cameron's talking about here but let's continue i mean we could just admit that we don't know everything or anything about a supposed supernatural being and the supernatural realm he supposedly inhabits of which we have absolutely no evidence or actual knowledge whatsoever..
probably god has some kind of reason or you don't have any kind of good reason as we'll see because the whole thing was made up by bronze and roman ignoramus is not in any way intelligent enough to think this stuff through and you likely bought it without really thinking about it either probably because of some overwhelming emotional experience or simple indoctrination as a kid ..
and i mean the bible doesn't say that we should know the reasons behind everything that god does and we also definitely shouldn't fall into the trap of trying to bluff an answer when you don't actually have an answer as as you're about to do.
I can think of at least three reasons that god would have to not just start everyone out in heaven let the bluffing of the answer begin in general it's just an extremely great good that people can choose to be in heaven can we now well then i choose to be in heaven right now? First of all who wouldn't choose heaven and why would god make some people he knew would choose heaven and some people he knew wouldn't surely since god knows everything he could have just created the people he knew would choose heaven in heaven no evil no suffering just what any omni-benevolent super being would do being able to choose to love god and enter into a relationship with him is a great good well what exactly is the alternative now if i don't choose to love god and enter into a relationship with him he'll torture me forever
I don't think god understands this concept of free will that's duress and a choice i don't need so here's the deal you can either choose to love me and have a relationship with me or I'll murder your entire family right in front of you after i rape and sodomize your wife and daughters. I may even yeah i may even do your little guy Where exactly is the great good again suppose that a scientist like a mad scientist came up with some kind of love serum that could make anybody you want fall in love with you like it might be fun to dream or think about using this serum on somebody but would you actually want to use it wouldn't forced love be less valuable than actual genuine love from someone coming to love you on their own volition yes yes it would so why the is your god threatening me with eternal torture if i don't want a relationship with him does he really think people are going to genuinely love him while the sword of jesus christ is dangling over their heads The second reason shines light on the unthinkable goodness of what Jesus did on the cross for us i mean sacrificing yourself for like your loved ones or people that love you back is a really really fantastic good but sacrificing yourself for people that reject you and don't want anything to do with you jesus christ didn't sacrifice himself for the people who reject him and don't want anything to do with him those people are going to be tortured forever like can you even imagine a greater act of love than that than than saving the people who love you under great duress and torturing forever the people who won't pretend such a thing
yes yes i can without any effort whatsoever but notice that none of this can happen what jesus did on the cross it can't happen without the existence of sin well i'm glad to see a religious person finally admitting that it really is all about him god he was obviously bored in his timeless void of nothingness and thought you know i'll create sentient beings and put them into an environment of evil with a sinful nature so that i can go down and sacrifice myself to myself and they'll all love me and praise me for it or else because i'll make them too
stupid to realize that this miserable place never had to exist except for my need to play the hero. Jesus can't save us or sacrifice himself for us. if we don't need any saving okay i know I said at the beginning that i thought this guy was intelligent and i do but these are the kinds of stupid things religions make people say Jesus Christ starts the fire then puts it out and for that we're all supposed to be grateful after all the damage the fire did to us and our belongings that's a sociopath
how does Cameron not see that god wanted to play hero so we all have to suffer horrifically and die? Cameron buddy that's not love that's Stockholm syndrome we'll have to look at the rest of this nonsense in part 2. until then i'll continue to be that guy with the secret. thanks for watching
Seems Mister Deity wants to keep his rebellious traits...which is the whole reason that freethinkers reject God even if He DID exist. They want to keep their personality flaws and all.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
First off, you are trying to define the God I worship and know (or think I know) in MY head.
If your god stayed in your head no one would ever have had a problem. You let your god loose on the world to war against other gods and against humanity.
Yet you have already judged this God to be invasive and destructive.
It's your bible. They are your stories. You present him to be invasive and destructive.
If those stories were actual then there would be evidence of massive disruptions over Egypt, Sinai, all over the Levant, let alone the flud stuff worldwide. That trick with the sun standing still while your god killed yet another city would have disrupted gravity fields from here to Jupiter. And the Genesis accounts are exceptionally invasive as well as wrong and that is not even adding in fiat creation, talking snakes, and DaFall.
Gods beaming their spirits or the spirits of demons directly into your head?
We aren't stupid, Phat. The evidence should be there. It isn't.
Now, you invoke majik to solve the problem. Physically impossible feats to restabilize the thermodynamic and gravitational balance of earth and a large portion of our solar system.
When you insist on majik as your answer you lose the battle because that turns right around to the problem of evil again.
With all this majik, able to do anything, everything...
He was there hovering around watching every time they closed and locked the shower doors at Auschwitz. He saw this, up close and personal, multiple times a day, for years. And with all his power and all his love he did nothing. The greatest anguish and suffering a person can know forced upon millions well within reach of his holy mercy and he does nothing.
It really is easy to explain why. He isn't there. In fact, he just isn't. Neither are any of his brethren. Problem of evil solved.
Back to evidence. Without some reasonable physical evidence that a thing is, that thing is only a conjure of mind. A conjure of mind awaiting evidence of its existence. Your gods are conjures of primitive superstitious minds. There won't be any evidence of their existence.
Not one of the stories you base your faith on has any efficacy. Even with all its majik your religion did not do what you say it did, and in using that same majik, it cannot give you what you want from it.
Seems Mister Deity wants to keep his rebellious traits...which is the whole reason that freethinkers reject God even if He DID exist.
Quite the contrary. I, for one, would love to live forever in bliss. If there were a god I could go for one of the nice kind. I'd gladly give thanks and praises to a good god who wasn't torturing anybody or any thing. I could spend eternity journeying the universe to learn what wonders were out there.
Your kind of god, however, is just despicable. Doesn't deserve veneration. But just to humor you, yes, if your god is the real god then I will be in the lake of fire and there is not a god damned thing I can do about it. I will not submit to your monster.
But, there is reality and neither of these is even remotely likely.
I will be as we all must be. I will be entropy in the aether.
Of course the subtitle begs the question: "is there any other kind of god?"
And, yes as Phat should know all too well, the Bible is part of that literature.
Back to evidence. Without some reasonable physical evidence that a thing is, that thing is only a conjure of mind. A conjure of mind awaiting evidence of its existence. Your gods are conjures of primitive superstitious minds. There won't be any evidence of their existence.
quote:In forensic science, Locard's principle holds that the perpetrator of a crime will bring something into the crime scene and leave with something from it, and that both can be used as forensic evidence. Dr. Edmond Locard (1877–1966) was a pioneer in forensic science who became known as the Sherlock Holmes of Lyon, France. He formulated the basic principle of forensic science as: "Every contact leaves a trace". It is generally understood as "with contact between two items, there will be an exchange." Paul L. Kirk expressed the principle as follows:
Wherever he steps, whatever he touches, whatever he leaves, even unconsciously, will serve as a silent witness against him. Not only his fingerprints or his footprints, but his hair, the fibres from his clothes, the glass he breaks, the tool mark he leaves, the paint he scratches, the blood or semen he deposits or collects. All of these and more, bear mute witness against him. This is evidence that does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong, it cannot perjure itself, it cannot be wholly absent. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value.
Fragmentary or trace evidence is any type of material left at (or taken from) a crime scene, or the result of contact between two surfaces, such as shoes and the floor covering or soil, or fibres from where someone sat on an upholstered chair.
Similarly in science, every process leaves behind some evidence, which of course could be destroyed by another process but then that second process would itself leave behind evidence.
Plus those "conjures of mind", such the gods have proven to be, could instead be pink fairies or purple demons. Without being bogged down by the bothersome requirement of tiresome evidence, Phat and anyone else can make up any supernatural beastie that you want.
They just have no justification in expecting the rest of us to believe what they claim about their creations.
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My response is why limit your personal idea of Gods character to the fixed characters in the books? Im thinking that you guys dont understand how real God is to me. You are of course free to label it a fantasy or a delusion.