Are we prisoners of sin

The standards are easily identifiable in the greek scriptures. Some are principles to live by, other are direct laws. They are not the Mosaic law because that Law was done away with when Christ died but many of the Christian laws have been taken from the law of Moses and expanded upon.If you read the Ten Commandments then compare them with the following Christian laws and teachings:
"It is Jehovah your God you must worship." (Matt 4:10)
"Guard yourselves from idols." (1John 5:21; 1Corinthians 10:14) "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified [not treated in a worthless way]."(Matthew 6:9)
"Children, be obedient to your parents." (Ephesians 6:1,2)Its very clear also that murder, committing adultery, fornication, bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism, taking drugs, drunkenness, greediness, violence, jealously, misusing blood, abusive speech, stealing, lying and coveting are also against the laws for Christians. Infact, its anything that could harm another person, or anything that is unloving.Here is an example of how the 10 commandments have been expanded.Matt 5:21 "YOU heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You must not murder; but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.’ 22However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice"
23"If, then, you are bringing your gift to the altar and you there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar, and go away; first make your peace with your brother, and then, when you have come back, offer up your gift."The principle is very clear here...christians were not told to simply refrain from murder, they were told to not even hold a grudge against anyone. Thats a christian principle and its what makes christian laws different to mosaic laws.Jesus also expanded on the law about fornication when he said "anyone who keeps looking at a woman so as to have a desire for her as already committed adultery with her in his heart" you are underestimating imperfection and the implication of sin and imperfection.In the garden of Eden, Adam could communicate directly with God. This was because he was a perfect man. But after he had fallen into sin, he became alienated from God and no longer had communication with him. He was sent out into the wilderness on his own. And he had to fend for himself.Jehovahs will has always been to rectify this situation and to bring mankind back to that perfect state of being children of God and in his company again.Sin has to come to an end before that can happen. So if mankind continues in this state of sin and imperfection, then we will always be alienated from God. But if sin and death can be removed from mankind, then we can become children of God again and live free of the effects of sin and death.

Jesus didnt write anything down and nothing was written down until after his death. no i wouldnt. Simon Magus was a practicer of magical arts, something the scriptures condemn, Apollonius believed in a multitude of different gods and Smith's church doest teach the bible, they follow Smith's book... so I dont think any of them can be said to be doing what is required of a follower of Jesus and therefore could not be working by Holy spirit.

He did say so himself. Matthew, Mark and John wrote accounts about the 'lords evening meal' where jesus handed around bread and wine and said:"Take, eat. This means my body'. Also he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: 'Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my '"blood of the covenant"' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins..." I see what you're saying and understand why you are reasoning that way. However, there are other supernatural beings (satan & demons) who also possess power. They can give this power to anyone they choose. So while I agree that others may possess a power, it does not mean that God is the source of that power.This is why the bible condemns divination, sorcery and witchery. The power comes not from God, but from an evil source. This is also why the apostle John said ": "Do not believe every inspired expression...Test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God." at 1John 4:1

but you have said that the Devil is a fictional character. Yet the bible does not present him as a fictional character. It presents him as the originator of sin, the corruptor of mankind, the enemy of God and his Angels, the accuser, the slanderer etc etc etc.It raises questions such as, Would such an allegorical character be permitted into heaven to argue with God? If satan is merely 'evil' personified, how is it that the 'evil' could ever appear before God?
Also, the evil character of Satan is 'cast down from heaven', so if satan merely represents evil, how is it that it could originate with the God?The accounts about Jesus show that he expelled demons. Do you also believe that this did not really happen? If you believe that Satan is an allegorical figure, then you must also believe that the demons are allegorical figures and therefore the accounts about Jesus expelling demons are wrong or an outright lie.I think your reasoning is very contradictory and it shows that you have very little faith in the bible as the word of God. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

There is no contradiction. He was not a robot, God had given him free will therefore he still had to choose to follow the command given him. Besides that, his perfection depended upon his continued relationship with God. Once that relationship was gone, so was his perfection because he no longer lived by Gods perfect standard. You have to remember that mankind was in a state of independence, and we still are. Adam & Eve chose this for us, but God wanted to show them that to be reunited with him, they would need to follow his standards. These standards were handed to them in the Mosaic law and while God knew they would not be able to live by them fully, He made a way out for them thru forgiveness of sins that would not require a sacrifice.
You have to keep in mind that God did not choose this situation, our first parents did and because God has a perfect standard of Justice, there is a certain formality in the due process of rectifying the wrong.I agree with you that a parents role is to protect children from harm...no doubt there.And you're right, God could have stopped Adam & Eve from eating the fruit he told them not to. But if he did that, then they wouldnt have any choice but to obey. That would result in taking away their free will and thus turning them into robots. Walking Zombies.Im sure you would not pre program your kids to obey your every word.While i can see why people are dirty on God for our circumstance, I think they need to look at the ones who put us in this condition in the first place. Adam & Eve knew the consequences of disobedience but they chose it anyway.God has been working for the past 6,000 odd years to rectify the situation on our behalf. If anything we should be thanking him.

im not going to debate homosexuality hereIt was asked what are christian laws and i cited several of them.Perhaps you can start a new thread on why christian laws condemn these practices.

Christianity does indeed have a legal system.
What makes you think that it does does not?from your link, a law is defined as:
"A rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling body" This is exactly what Christian laws are. They were enforced in the congregations by the older men or the overseer's of the congregations and willfull breakers of the laws were expelled in the first century. If a christian church is not doing this today one would need to ask why. If they are using the bible as their guide, then they would be. Jesus said to his diciples "Teach them to observe all the things I have commanded you." Matthew 19:17So obviously Jesus expected his followers to 'observe' his commandments.
To observe means to apply them. Each will apply the commands to different degrees because we all have our own set of circumstances to live with and therefore as long as a christian strives to apply the commands to the best of his ability, then God is pleased. That is all we can do and that all that is expected as is shown by Jesus illustration of the Talents atMatthew 25:14"For it is just as when a man, about to travel abroad, summoned slaves of his and committed to them his belongings. 15And to one he gave five talents, to another two, to still another one, to each one according to his own ability..."In this illustration, even the one who had worked little, was commended for the little he did. It was not a sin that he did perform as well as the other disciples who did much more then he did. Besides early copies of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used by Jesus’ disciples, contained God’s name in the form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton.Scholar George Howard testifies to this saying "Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text."Also think about it. If the Christians did not use the divine name, could Jesus have said "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world" at John 17:6or could he have said in his model pray 'Hallowed by thy name' (Matt6)If your bible does not contain the name of God, you should be asking why. Perhaps read the forward in your bible...you might find it there. The law to worship God alone is most definitely a christian law. According to the OT and the New Testament, there is only 1 true God. This is why that Mosaic law continued with the Christians.You have to remember that the mosaic law constituted Gods standards. Those standards did not change. They are still his standards which is why many of them carried over to the christian congregation.What did NOT carry over were the penalties that the mosaic law prescribed. So God still required exclusive devotion, but he did not require the death penalty for any who flouted that law. As you said, this was a prayer so its not a law or a command.The purpose of the pray was to show the disciples how to pray. But Jesus did not say you must recite this prayer. They asked him how to pray to God and Jesus showed them how. As i said, the mosiac law is still Gods standard in all areas of life. But the penalties for failing to meet those laws is no longer required which is how the Mosaic law has been done away with. I apologise if I did not make that clearer in my previous post. I can see by the rest of your questions that I must not have made that point clear.As the definition of law from your link says that when a law is broken its is to be " prescribed penalties are enforced" In many of the Mosaic laws, the penalty was death.The sacrifice of the Christ paid the penalty for all mankind. This is why the Mosaic law was done away with. It was no longer a requirement of God that its penalties be enforced. Christ carried that burden for us. You are right. Perfection is not required by God.But it once was required under the Mosaic law. If the law was broken, the prescribed penalty would need to be applied and paid by the wrongdoer. The law Demanded perfection.Now though, God does not require perfection because his Son has paid the ultimate penalty of the law on our behalf. This is why we can simply ask for forgiveness of our sins, and God will forgive us on the basis of Jesus sacrifice. Although in saying that, Jesus did tell his diciples "you must accordingly be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect"this shows that perfection is the standard that we must strive for, even if we will not be able to reach it right now. Really? When was the last time he spoke to you? I think you are thinking of the scripture that says
"until the Law [given through Moses] sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam." (Ro 2:12; 5:13, 14)Paul’s words are to be understood in context; his earlier statements in this letter to the Romans show that he was comparing those under the Mosiac Law with those not under the Mosaic law. He still showed that both classes of people were sinners when he says "Nevertheless, death ruled as king...even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam"or in other words, even people who did not deliberately disobey God the way that Adam had, were still dieing as a result of it. Edited by Peg, : gramma

I can assure you that I am informed. I have talked with Mormons on several occasions and they do not use the bible. They use the book of Mormon. I havnt met one yet who carried a bible with them.Its as shame really because all the mormans I have met have been very sincere and friendly people.

I see the link you are using to present your argument comes from a group who's statment of beliefs says...

quote:

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OCRT Statement of Belief:
We are a multi-faith group. As of 2008-FEB, we consist of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters, such as belief in a supreme being, the nature of God, interpretation of the Bible and other holy texts, whether life after death exists, what form the afterlife may take, etc.

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If you want to understand the bible, i dont think you will find reasonable answers there.The first thing that needs to be addressed here is how Koine Greek plays a role in our understanding of scripture. In Koine Greek, the definite article (equivalent to 'THE' in english), when used, always points to a distinct identity but if no definite article is used then it is pointing to something in general.in Luke 4:3 "at this the Devil said to him..." the expression ho di.a'bo.los (the Devil) is used, thus designating a particular person because 'ho' is the definite article.wheras at John 6:70 "I chose you twelve did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer"
the Greek word di.a'bo.los' is used to describe a bad quality that had developed in Judas Iscariot.You can see that in Luke the definite article is used. This means the slanderer here is pointing to a person...or as translated 'THE DEVIL'
In John we see that Judas is called 'A SLANDERER' in the general sense of the quality of being a slanderer.Many more scriptures use the definite article when referring to the Devil. This proves that the Devil is a distinct identity rather then a mere quality.Also, when Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness, he could not have been tempted by a mere quality of evil or his own inner evil for the Bible makes it clear that Jesus was "...guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners..." as Hebrews 7:26 says.
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Matt 4:8'Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9and he said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me"'.The temptations of Jesus would not have been real temptations if the evil was only an abstract idea._________________________Although some say that the Devil refers simply to an abstract principle of evil, the qualities and actions attributed to Satan in the Bible can be attributed only to a person. Such as him becoming angry, using crafty acts, causing trouble etc.Revelation 12:12 says "...Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time"How can an abstract idea know anything? It can't, nor would you ever need to fear an idea or hide from an idea. Also if evil was only an idea, it could not be spoken of as becoming angry over anything.
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John 8:44'YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]'Here Jesus was talking to the religious leaders. He accused them of being children of the Devil, how could he say such a thing if the devil was merely a state of being evil... He would have told them that they were 'being' evil...not that they were 'children of The Devil' You are claiming that Job is merely a fictional story. What evidence are you using to make that claim? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

I did not say that they dont recognize the bible, i said they dont use it when they are in their ministry work.Joseph Smith, Jr., stated in the Documentary History of the Church: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book."Should not the Bible be the keystone of Christian belief? If not, why not?

Perhaps you could explain how their beliefs differ from the bible then?

The only penalty for christians is expulsion from the congregation. Christianity is unlike Judaism because it does not have a crime & punishment system. As i have said 50 times previously, Christ put an end to The Law Code and its punishments. It opened the way for forgiveness of sins thru Jesus instead.So nowdays, if a christian unrepentantly commits wrong, then the congregation is to 'Remove the wicked man from among yourselves' in a similar way that God expelled Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. (Ge 3:19, 23,24) And in the same way Cain was banished (Ge 4:11, 14,16) And the way that the angels that sinned were thrown into Tartarus, a condition of dense spiritual darkness (2Pe 2:4)_________________________________________
1Cor 5:11"But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."Titus 3:10"As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned."Romans 16:17"Now I exhort YOU, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that YOU have learned, and avoid them."2Thessalonians 3:6"Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us."Matthew 18:15"Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."2 Thessalonians 3:14"But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother. "
________________________________________________In all of the above scriptures the Christian punishment for error is excommunication from the congregation. Christians weren't to stone wrongdoers the way the Jews were to stone wrongdoers under the Mosaic Law.
They were to withdraw the member of the congregation and not mix with them. This is christian punishment and how a congregation should deal with an unrepentant sinner. I assume you have read the OT. Did you not read any laws in there? We also do not know exactly how Jesus name 'Yeshua' was pronounced, yet we dont have a problem using it. The tetragrammaton is all we have of Gods name. Much better that we mispronounce it then remove it from the Bible as if it were unworthy. I agree with you. Its a case of those in charge not following thru on the book they claim to teach.
True Christianity would allow such a person the opportunity to repent before any punishment was metted out. If the person did repent, then they would receive forgiveness. But if they did not, then they would have to be expelled from the congregation according to the bible. I said the mosaic law required perfection because if you failed to live by some of those commands, the punishment was death. So if you didnt want to die, you had to fullfill the law 'perfectly' not just a little bit, but completely 100%.
Many people were put to death for failing to comply. Apostasy, idolatry, adultery, fornication, eating blood, and murder were among the offenses carrying the death penalty. If you did any of these things you couldnt ask for forgiveness and mercy to be spared the death penalty. Thats why they had to fullfill the law perfectly. One slip up and they could have been put to death. I can appreciate what you are saying. Spirituality is the only means of communication we have with God and its commendable that you have it.
Have you ever wondered why God would speak with Adam personally? I've not met one person yet who has been spoken to by God in a physical sense.

I could invent my own book and claim it to be an inspired book and invent a religion and sell it to people toobut I would need to prove why my book is inspired.How do the Mormons prove this?

what am I wrong about?that the Mormons use a book other then the bible to base their religion on?

DevilsAdvocate, i really dont want to debate about other religions.The books of the Christian Greek sciptures are the writings of the Apostles and 1century congregation, so they should be the foundation of Christian belief.As soon as anyone creates their own book, especially one that contradicts the bible, it has to be questioned. Joseph Smith was not one of Jesus Apostles. He introduced teachings that are contrary to Christian teachings. He also was the only eyewitness to the appearance of the Angel who apparently showed him a new scroll, afterwhich the Angel took the scroll back to heaven with him. So there were no eye witnesses to the event that he claims to have happened to him.Now, whether you believe the bible is inspired or not, the fact is that those who wrote the greek scriptures were eye witnesses of the Christ and everything they wrote could be confirmed by other eye witnesses.Unfortunately, Joseph Smith cannot provide any eye witness testimony to the event he described. Besides that, the teaching of the Mormon church are different to christian teachings and therefore its very hard to consider them to be christian in origin. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.