|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 0/368 Day: 0/11 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Are we prisoners of sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Woodsy writes: I am not impressed by your your bits of text about love. One can easily find vile bits of text in the same book. Yes you can. Its a tragic record of mans domination of man.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
SammyJean writes: Tell us Cedre, how it is that this virtuous and pure teaching HAS end up in a bloodbath? a christian church that actually practices Christianity is one in a million
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
SammyJean writes: How can you be sure that you have the right branch of Christianity? you find one that teaches from the bible and not doctrines of men.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
DevilsAdvocate writes: That is a big pill of assumptions you are wanting us non-believers to blindly swallow. You might want to stop preaching and start producing some ounce of evidence to back up your claims. perhaps Cedre was thinking that this forum was for discussion on Faith & Belief
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
If you have the bible and Pauls own writings about the issue of the Gentiles and the law, why dont you use it?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
bluescat48 writes: And which one would that be? The one that teaches it and practices it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
SammyJean writes: Don't most of the different Christian denominations teach only from the bible, just different interpretations? yes, they all make that claim. But surely you'd have to ask why there are so many conflicting interpretations of the Bible? Its understandable why most people conclude that the Bible is unclear and contradictory. God’s word is not contradictory. Its the interpretations and explanations that are contradictory.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: And yet what you've been presenting are doctrines of men.Paul is a man, not God. You dont believe that the Apostles were inspired, yet God proved that he was with them by giving them powerful works. Moses was just a man too, but God used him to lead the nation...he used the Apostles to establish christianity. Paul had Gods backing just as Moses did.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: If Paul had God's backing, then God changed his mind on how he wanted things done and according to Cedre, God never changes. Christianity today developed through the Gentiles from Paul's writings. You've been shown the contradictions between Paul and the OT. Address them. How had God changed his mind? Christianity did not develop thru gentiles. The Apostles of Jesus and Jesus himself were Jews. So christianity was developed thru Jews because they did the inviting. Gentiles did not invite jews to christianity. Perhaps you can repeat the 'contradictions' .
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Perdition writes: The Apostles, especially Peter and James were against Paul and his teachings, leading to the showdown between them in Jerusalem shown in Galations 2 and Acts 15. They were not against pauls teachings. It was the other Apostles, James, Cephus and John who had sent Paul to preach to the Gentiles. So they certainly were not against it. And if you read Acts 15:1 " And certain men came down from Jude′a and began to teach the brothers: "Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved." 2But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar′nabas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar′nabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute" these men were debating the point with Paul and Barnabas, the men debating were not the Apostles.
Perdition writes: Paul essentially bribed them with the money he had collected from the Gentiles, and they gave in to his demands to not make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law in regards to circumcision, while the Apostles thought they should. goodness me, where where does that information come from??? This is just not the case at all. Acts 15 shows us the outcome of the issue about the mosaic law...as those men/brothers were teaching that the Gentiles had to practice the Law of Moses and be circumcised. After their dispute about it, they recieved a letter from the Apostles in Jerusalem...
quote: Paul also showed in Gal 2 that if they (jews) still needed the Mosiac Law, then the death of the Christ was in vain.
quote: and as you know, Paul was not a Gentile, he was a Jew... a Jew who no longer believed the Mosaic law was the way to salvation. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
thanks purpledawn for the msg numbers.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Perdition writes: We read a number of books and looked at passages from the Bible, and it became quite clear to us there was a feud between Paul and Peter/James. Reading between the lines, and recognizing that whatever else these men may have been, they were human, we were able to piece together a pretty convincing case for what I wrote above. Im not denying that there was a dispute, it just wasnt over Pauls teachings... it was over Peter being afraid to associate with the Gentile christians whilst in the company of the Jewish christians. (keep in mind that the culture of the Jews was one that did not even allow walking on the same side of the road as a gentile, so its not unlikely that the new Jewish converts had trouble getting over that deeply ingrained culture) So Paul told Peter to stop putting on such a 'pretense' and explained that righteousness was thru Christ and not works of the Mosaic Law, as it was previously.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: So the question is, was the Mosaic Law ever the way to salvation per God in the OT... anymore than our own legal system today? that depends on what you understand the purpose of the Mosaic Law to be. The early christians understood it this way...
quote: no one can be declared righteous by the Mosaic Law because no man can live by Law perfectly. Therefore, people were declared righteous by their 'faith' as opposed to their attempted obedience to the mosaic law Of Abraham, it is stated that he exercised faith in God and was "declared righteous"; also, it is written that Rahab of Jericho manifested her faith by her works and so was "declared righteous,"Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain, "through which [faith] he had witness borne to him that he was righteous" I must ask you, what has the legal system of the government got to do with Gods salvation? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: The early "Christians" were the disciples of Jesus who according to Christian History were called Nazarenes. They were Jewish and still followed the Mosaic and Oral Laws of Judaism at the time. Remember they supposedly required Paul to make an offering to show that he was not teaching against the LaW and Paul made the offering. i'd like to comment on this but could you please provide scriptural references so I know where you are coming from.
purplddawn writes: Show me that God presented the Mosaic Laws as a way to salvation. I already said several times that the mosaic laws did not give anyone salvation...they gave them a righteous standing before God. Salvation cannot be earned by any of us, it is a free gift.
purpledawn writes: Since you have difficulty defining your catch phrases, I will assume that by salvation you mean a place in the world to come or the afterlife. If I'm incorrect, please clearly define it. Salvation does not mean obtaining an afterlife. An afterlife was not a biblical teaching. The resurrection was the teaching in the OT
quote:She'ol is the grave of mankind, the place that we all go to when we die. And God was the one who could save people from the grave...or resurrect them from it. So the salvation was to await for God to bring them back from the dead as is seen from Jobs plea to be put into she'ol and await a resurrection as the next 2 scriptures show... quote: purpledawn writes: So God tells us that we can be deemed righteous by following his decrees and faithfully keeping his laws. God does not say we are to live by law perfectly. You have yet to show me that he does. Again, Paul is not God. you are misunderstanding me. I have said, more then once, that the mosaic law was a law that demanded perfection because anyone who failed to abide by it could be put to death for certain things. So if you committed an act that violated the law (eg fornication/adultery/idolatry) you could be put to death. So the law demanded perfection, but God did not because as i've also said, being declared righteous was due to 'faith' and not 'works of law' as in the case of Rahab the prostitute from Jerico. Her faith was counted to her as righteous, not her obedience to the mosaic law. the law simply highlighted sin and imperfection...it showed why the Messiah was needed and made the hebrews eager for the Messiah to come and remove the burden of the law.
purpledawn writes: So here we have a contradiction between God and Paul if Paul is truly railing against the Mosaic Law in the OT. If Paul is arguing against the Jewish doctrine of the time, which isn't written in the OT, then what has that got to do with the Gentiles? Even Noah was considered righteous in his time. It was prophesied in the OT that the Mosaic law covenant would come to an end.
quote: In Hebrews, Paul quotes from Jeremiahs prophecy and shows how this applies to Jesus, for Jesus was the promised Messiah
quote: there is nothing un-scriptural in Pauls teaching that the Mosaic Law had come to an end...it was supposed to come to an end. God himself said it would.
purpledawn writes: Does God (not Paul) make it clear in the OT that he will reward believers in the afterlife for following the laws presented through Moses? As the OT shows, it was only to be a temporary arrangement until the Messiah arrived. But those who died whilst following the mosaic law such as Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Able...all those who had been declared righteous by their 'faith', will be rewarded with a resurrection to life on this earth. Paul explains this in Acts 24
quote: John & Paul both say that heaven is not where 'all' humans go after they die. None of the righteous faithful people of the past had gone there according to them
quote: So when the Resurrection takes place it will be in the place that Jesus said...'the meek shall inherit the earth'Matt 5:5.He was quoting from the Psalm 37:11 where it reads "The meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: So why worry so much about whether a person has sinned or not, when 1. it doesn't impact one's spot in the resurrection and 2. Gentiles (NonJews) have their own legal system to keep them in line and death is not the primary punishment? If following the law doesn't gain us a spot in the resurrection, then not following the law doesn't lose us a spot in the resurrection. Why the obsession with sin and the need to be "perfect"? Neither you no cedre have shown that humans are prisoners of sin, which by definition means breaking God's law. Im going to try and keep this as simple as possible (not because i think your're simple, but because there are many facets that could be addressed) Simply put, all creation are prisoners of sin because we are born from Adam & Eve. We've inherited it. The proof of sin is that we all die. Gentiles, jews, christians, muslims etc ALL die. That means we have all inherited that trait from Adam. The only means of salvation from the condition of death, is for sin to be done away with. God has made this possible thru the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Anyone who wants to benefit from that salvation MUST put their faith in Jesus Christ and must follow him. This goes for Gentiles too...they must submit to Christian law and the teaching of Christs Apostles. Gods laws and mans are quite different and just because a gentile follows the laws of their land does not mean that they have a righteous standing with God. They must follow Gods laws in order to obtain that. Remember that it is 'Faith' in God that counts a person as righteous, not works of any law. To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs.
purpledawn writes: Getting past the catch phrases and meaningless words, sure takes a lot of time. So when you say salvation you mean the resurrection or rising from physical death. Why not just say resurrection? Yes, i do mean the resurrection. Most church's teach that the 'afterlife' & 'salvation' has primarily to do with going to heaven as a spirit which is why i did not just say 'resurrection'. Most people are not familiar with that concept.
purpledawn writes: I also showed you that according to extra Biblical history the death sentence wasn't necessarily enforced and at the time of Jesus the Jews didn't have that authority. If you read the bible you will see plenty of expamples where the death penalty was enforced. Jesus stopped a group of Jews from stoning a woman in his day, so the practice was alive and well in 33CE. Does your source state what era he is talking about?
purpledawn writes: When the Mosaic Covenant was "signed", it was forever. God felt that the Hebrews had broken the covenant and said in Jeremiah that he would establish a new covenant with them. Nothing in the OT shows me that God knew the Hebrews would break the covenant. The new covenant would be with Israel and Judah (not gentiles) once they returned from exile. Remember the whole prophesy needs to come about not just one sentence. You're right, its not just one sentence that needs to come about, its not even just 1 prophecy, You need to look at all the prophecies.I showed you in Jerimiah's prophecy that the law covenant was to come to an end and a new one was to begin. Daniel also spoke of the end of the Mosaic Law...
quote: Moses also testified that in the future another prophet would arise and the Hebrews would have to follow him...
quote: The prophet mentioned here is clearly a specific and special individual. He was also said to be a blessing for ALL the nations, not only the jews, but all of mankind would follow this prophet...
quote: the Apostles of Christ clearly explained how Jesus was this one. This also explains why the Mosaic law MUST come to an end. Once the Prophet arrived the people would have to listen to him... Moses was not longer the means to reconciliation with God. Reconciliation was now to be thru the Seed that was promised by God. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024