A question that was first presented by Socrates.

Listen, it's your interpretation, as I clearly cannot see any of that stuff in God's passing comment. You're reading too much into this. It says what it says - it doesn't say what Crashfrog says it says.I am not stupid, you want me to agree so you can say "therefore, if I have knowledge equal to God then look here, he's been evil"But I'm never going to agree here. God's thoughts are higher than ours.

mike the wiz responds to me:

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Instead of quote mining, you should read Isaiah.

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I have. That's why I know it so well. Did you read my post before responding?We are not surprised to find a claim in the OT that god is the source of all evil. Judaism is a true monotheistic religion at this point: God is the source of EVERYTHING and that means evil as well as good. You can see this throughout the other books, too. The "Adversary" who plagues Job is an agent of god. He is not the devil. Job loses his family, his living, his peace of mind, very nearly his life because god has decided to.

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But did you show why God was upset and done the thing?

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Yes.Didn't you read my post before responding? God made a mistake. He could have prevented the world getting to be in such a state by starting the process off in a better fashion, but he didn't.Suppose you have a puppy. You never train him, never discipline him, and he grows up to be a wild, uncontrollable menace. Of course, the dog is responsible for his own actions, but you are ultimately responsible for not having raised the dog properly. You gave it a horrible foundation upon which to base its life and it is no small wonder that it is now a terror.Thus, you repent the mistake that you made.You seem to be arguing that if god puts a gun in your hand, a gun which you could never have acquired on your own, then he bears no responsibility for what you do with it.

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God only turns because Moses mentions Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - it doesn't mean that God is not right, it means that God for Abraham's sake - remember's his covenant.

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Indeed, the previous covenant was broken.But that doesn't deal with the direct statement of the Bible: There needs to be a new covenant.If god's law were perfect, then there would be no need for a new covenant. All that would have to be done is the re-establishment of the old one. If you and I decide that the property line between our houses runs across this specific location and then I go off and build over the line, it doesn't require the creation of a new property line between us. It simply requires us to re-establish the agreement that we already made: The property line is here.But that isn't what happens in the Bible. A new covenant seems to be required and the Bible clearly understands why: The old one isn't good.

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God repents for the sins he had committed. After all, why would god repent if he hadn't sinned?

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And since all things come from god, including evil, then yes, his eye is evil...but because his eye is all things, good and evil.

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Well, I agree with Christ - that only one is good [that is] God.

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Non sequitur.Please answer the question:Why would god repent if he hadn't sinned?And you avoid the other point: According to the Bible, only one is good and only one is evil and they are both the same thing: God.

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So you admit that god does sin. That morality is relative. That god is fickle and inconstant.

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Well, let's examone what I said

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Yes, let's. Thus, god can kill or not kill. It doesn't matter. It's always good. If god says it is wrong to kill but then turns around and kills, then it is not a contradiction because it comes from god.Thus, there is no objective standard of "good." Both A and ~A are true.

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" Now in my previous messages, I said that the punishment of the wicked for their evil, is justified by God's righteouss anger. "

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Since when did "punishment" become a synonym for killing? I thought killing was evil. Just because someone has done wrong and deserves some sort of retribution doesn't mean you have to kill him.After all, Christ tried to stop people from killing: He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword, and all that.Of course, that didn't stop Christ from killing...he just did it to life that couldn't fight back....So which is it? Is killing good or not good? If it is not good, why does god kill?

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No, I don't think morality is relative

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Then is killing good or not good?We seemed to think it was a load of hooey when Nixon said, "If the President does it, it is not illegal." Why does god get a pass?

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or that God sins

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Then why does god repent? Repenting is what you do after you sin. Why would god repent if he didn't sin?

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or he is fickle

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Then why does god change his mind? Why would he admit that he was wrong to flood the earth?

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God's intentions were always good

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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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God is good, and if he repents, it's because of the evil of man.

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Why would god repent man's sin? That makes no sense. Oh, I could see god suffering the punishment for man's sin and I could see god being sorry for man's sin, but that is different from god repenting for man's sin.And besides, you have directly contradicted the Bible. When god repents, it is not because of the evil of man. It is because of the evil of god. Man does something bad. God overreacts and does something horrible (like flood the world, killing everything).God then repents for god's mistake. Yes, it was man's actions that drove god to act, but that is no excuse for god OVERreacting.You don't swat flies with cannons. Your reaction to the fly is understandable. Your destruction of everything in an attempt to get at a fly is not.

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Yes, you have shown that God takes the blame for man

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No, I have shown that god takes the blame for god. Every now and then god screws up. And every now and then, god cops to his own sin and repents.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

That's not a "passing comment", that's the very thrust of Genesis 3.Look, if you can't read plain statements in English, I can't help you. (I can't very well teach you to read using the written word.) But maybe you don't have any business talking about what the Bible says or doesn't say if you have such a problem with the language in it. No, Mike. This whole thing was started by you. You asked, dismissively, "what authority do you have to judge God's actions?"I've been telling you what authority we have. We have the authority that God says we have; the authority we were given according to His plan.If you didn't want to know, then you shouldn't have asked. Why not? What's so bad about reading the Bible and learning what it says?You can agree with the atheists on certain things, Mike, without becoming one. Occasionally we are right about stuff; it's not a sin to agree with what is correct.

Satan is mentioned in Job, yet Job does not charge God foolishly when satan seeks to do evil to Job.Also, satan is who Christ cast out.The rest of your jive is a rant against God, which is futile, you cannot send him to hell - nor did God give any Commandments for himself. Does the shopkeeper steal if he eats his own sweets>?As for Jesus killing a fig. I eat meat - I therefore kill animals, and you probably do also. What say you about this?You and your futile band of merry God-judgers have a bizarre and strange concept of judging God. Yet, like Job, I will not charge God foolishly - he is the creator of all things, a man striving against him is foolishness, man withers like the grass, back to dust goes man.

I heed the Spirit, and therefore, agree with the bible and God's interpretation, no matter how many times you state otherwise. God's plan was good, we sinned in eating from the tree of knowledge. Yet the quote doesn't say we are equal in knowledge of good nd evil. No Crash, I can read it - and it says what it says - not what you say.<For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughtsGod's thoughts are higher than ours, it's that simple - and it's in English.It doesn't say we are equal in any way - it flat out states that his thoughts are higher.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-26-2004 09:18 PM

mike the wiz writes:

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The analogy proves you wrong, and the quote from Genesis says the man has become "as one of us" - it doesn't say equal in knowledge of good and evil.

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How Clintonian."It depends on what the meaning of 'as' is."What on earth do you think "as" means, mike? Didn't we already have this discussion? And on this exact verse, too? I remember it being with riVeRraT, but I may be mistaken on that score.

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We are like God in the way that he specifies - the ability to know good from evil.

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Correct, we know good and evil, but only one is good, God.

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That isn't what the Bible says.Genesis 6:9: These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.Noah was perfect, just AS god.1 Kings 15:14: But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.Asa was perfect, just AS god.Job 1:1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.Job 1:8: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?Job was perfect, just AS god.In fact, the entire point behind the story of Job is to show that Job was, indeed, perfect. God bids the Adversary to destroy Job's life and despite all the wickedness god rains down on him, Job keeps his faith:Job 1:22: In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.Shall I go on? There's more. Even Christ talks about the righteous.Or are we about to get into an argument over what the word "righteous" means, too?

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I believe - like the bible says, that God's thoughts(500cc) are higher than ours(100cc).

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But that's not what the Bible says. It says we have the same engine:Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:What on earth do you think the word "as" means?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

No. Job is dust, and Job repents to God eventually.Only one is good, God - Jesus Christ said this, and this is in the bible, therefore, how can it not be what the bible says?Job repents; It's no good Rrhain, I have read it, and you cannot hide anything from me. Wrong on both counts, as Job repented, now why would Job repent if he was perfect? Will you adhere to your own babble?Satan was responsible, and caused boils on Job, likewise - Christ cast out satan, because he was still up to his tricks [satan] - by causing illnesses etc..in Christ's day,. Wrong, it says we have become like God in knowing good and evil, that's all it says. It doesn't mean we are equal in our knowledge.My analogy of the motorbikes cannot be refuted.

How is it an appropriate analogy? Who has ever said that a 500cc engine "is as" a 100cc one?Your analogy failes in applicability. (You don't "refute" analogies, because analogies don't prove anything.)

We have established biblically, that God's thoughts are higher than ours. Therefore, biblically, you cannot have knowledge of good and evil equal to his thoughts. End of. You are looking too much into that quote. Meanwhile, I will read it as it is, and not how carnal Rrhain and Crashfrog interpret it.If you have ears to hear, you'd better listen - God is the one who will judge, and has the keys to heaven and hell - not man. THAT is why you cannot judge the shpkeeper. The shopkeeper gives rules for the shoppers - he doesn't steal his own sweets. Am I biblically accurate? Did Job repent? Did God say his thoughts are higher? You shut up your ears tight, and ignore the clear fact that God said his thoughts are higher. End of story.

mike the wiz responds to me:

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Satan is mentioned in Job

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Yes, but the "Satan" in Job is not the devil. The devil did not exist in Judaism. The "Satan" in Job is the "Adversary." Any translation of the Bible that tries to make it seem as if the character of "Satan" in Job is the devil is a mistranslation."Satan" in Job is an agent of god.Note, if you insist that the "Satan" in Job is the actual devil, then it is clear that this "Satan" has not fallen yet and therefore the serpent in Genesis cannot be the devil or even possessed by the devil because at that point, the devil doesn't exist...he's still part of god's retinue.Remember, the name of the angel that fell is "Lucifer," not "Satan."

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yet Job does not charge God foolishly when satan seeks to do evil to Job.

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Incorrect.Satan did not seek to do evil to Job. [I][B]GOD[/i][/b] seeks to do evil to Job. Haven't you read the book?Job 1:12: And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.Satan doesn't do a thing without god's permission and order.

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Also, satan is who Christ cast out.

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Again, showing how Christianity and Judaism are completely separate religions. The "Satan" of the New Testament is not the same character as the "Satan" of the Old. In the New, "Satan" somehow morphs into the devil. In the Old, "Satan" is an agent of god. In the New, a duality has been inserted with god being the source of only good and a new character, the devil, created to be the source of only evil. But in the Old, god was the source of both because there was only one god.

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The rest of your jive is a rant against God, which is futile, you cannot send him to hell

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(*chuckle*)I wasn't the one saying that god had good intentions.What you don't seem to understand is that even if someone wants to do good, that doesn't mean his actions really are good. When god floods the world, he is doing it for what he thinks is an absolutely right reason. But the way in which he goes about it, he later finds out, was completely inappropriate. So much so that he swears never to do it again.Why would god forswear to do something he had just done if it weren't wrong to have done it?

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Yet, like Job, I will not charge God foolishly - he is the creator of all things, a man striving against him is foolishness, man withers like the grass, back to dust goes man.

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BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, mike.You didn't think the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

mike the wiz responds to me:

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No. Job is dust

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What does that have to do with anything?In god's own opinion, Job is perfect.Job 1:8: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?If you aren't going to take god's own word that Job is perfect, whose word are you going to take?

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Job repents to God eventually.

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Yes, but not for anything he actually did. Job never sinned. He thinks he did since god is punishing him:Job 9:17: For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.However, Job never actually sinned. He gives everything to god. And in the end, he is rewarded:Job 42:12: So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

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In fact, the entire point behind the story of Job is to show that Job was, indeed, perfect. God bids the Adversary to destroy Job's life and despite all the wickedness god rains down on him,

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Wrong on both counts, as Job repented, now why would Job repent if he was perfect?

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Because god was torturing him. God was lying to him. God was making him think he had done something wrong. When god is angry with you, then it must be because of your sin. Therefore, you repent.But that's just it: Job hadn't sinned. That's the entire point of the story: God points out that Job is perfect and the adversary comments that god has been protecting Job from all harm so no wonder Job has been perfect: He's never had a test.Thus, god decides to test Job and tells the adversary to afflict Job with all manner of horribleness in order to see if Job will break.And he doesn't. Oh, he rues the day he was born, wonders what the hell he did to incur such a reaction, but he refuses to turn away from god.

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Satan was responsible

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Incorrect. God was responsible. Satan didn't do anything that god didn't tell him to do. Didn't you read the book?Job 1:12: And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.Satan only does what he does because god told him to.Satan is an agent of god.

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But that's not what the Bible says. It says we have the same engine:

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Wrong, it says we have become like God in knowing good and evil, that's all it says.

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And what do you think that means?To use crash's example, if I say I can do a highbar routine like Paul Hamm can, does that mean I'm as good as or worse than he?What do you think the word "like" means? What do you think the word "as" means? Do you understand the concept of metaphor? The reason why we use metaphor is because we are equating two things. When we say time is money, we mean they are identical in the quality we are using. Look at the words we use to describe time: We "spend" it. We "save" it. We "invest" it. We "waste" it. While time is not literally money, we conceptualize time as a tangible asset: Just like money.Where do you find any indication that when god says, "as one of us," what he really means is, "only a little bit akin to us but in no way equivalent"?What on earth do you think "as" means?

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It doesn't mean we are equal in our knowledge.

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Yes, it does.What do you think "as" means? It means "equal."Main Entry: 1as
Pronunciation: &z, (")az
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English eallswA likewise, just as -- more at ALSO
1 : to the same degree or amount

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That's the very first definition, mike: "To the same degree or amount."

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What on earth do you think "as" means?

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My analogy of the motorbikes cannot be refuted.

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My bike's a 1500cc. Does that mean I'm as far above god as god is above you?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

mike the wiz writes:

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We have established biblically, that God's thoughts are higher than ours.

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But we have also established biblically that a human's comprehension of good and evil is equiivalent to god's.So we have a problem: Either the Bible is contradicting itself, or there is something about "god's thoughts" that is different from "knowledge of good and evil."

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Meanwhile, I will read it as it is

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I'm sorry...what do you mean by "as"? You seem to think that "as" does not mean "equivalent to." Therefore, when you say you will read it "as it is," that must mean that you are going to read it only slightly akin to what it actually means. There is the actual meaning but you are only going to read it "as" the meaning indicates which, according to your logic, means you're not even going to approach the actual meaning.

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and not how carnal Rrhain

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When did I become an atheist?We've been through this before, mike: Just because I don't believe in your god, that doesn't mean I don't believe in any god.

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If you have ears to hear, you'd better listen - God is the one who will judge, and has the keys to heaven and hell

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BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, mike the wiz. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, mike the wiz has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, mike the wiz gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?

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Did Job repent?

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Not legitimately. He had nothing to repent. He repented false sins that god cruelly made him think he had committed.

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Did God say his thoughts are higher?

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Yes.Did god not also say that a human's understanding of good and evil is as god's?End of story.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Rrhain Strange that he didn't pull a miracle and have it produce fruit on the spot as that would be more consistent with the character.I also wonder who it was that hung around long enough to determine a fig tree that still had leaves did indeed wither away.

sidelined responds to me:

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I also wonder who it was that hung around long enough to determine a fig tree that still had leaves did indeed wither away.

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It did so "presently." In other words, it withered right there in front of them.Of course, Mark contradicts Matthew:Mark 11:13: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.11:14: And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.[...]11:20: And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.11:21: And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.So did the tree wither away "presently" or did it die overnight?I'm willing to let "presently" mean "quickly" such that it was quite obvious the next day that it was dead, but you raise the point I was making from another perspective:Why did Jesus kill the tree rather than make the tree bear fruit? The only thing the tree was doing "wrong" was failing to bear fruit out of season. Especially since right after Jesus kills the tree, he says:Mark 11:24: Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.Now, Jesus was talking about wanting the tree dead. But shouldn't Jesus have wanted the tree alive and bearing fruit?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Well, if you follow Barbara Thiering`s explanation of the pesher technique, the fig tree was the emblem of the Zealots (The Book that Jesus Wrote--p97)