Biblical contradictions II

quote:

---

Hey why dont you read a text till the end? That is the correct thing to do.You can not comment some piece of text without the entire text.That is because the answer to some question might be in another part of the text.That is called contextualization.

---

Believe me, I was raised in a fundamentalist church and indoctrinated in text and context quite well. Take your own advice and read the context of my post, to which you are responding. In this case, the context is the previous posts in the thread that refute your arguments by using actual quotations from Genesis.

quote:

---

Go read my 323 message of the previous thread TILL the END.
Ok.I HAVE SAID THAT before the fall there were no death but after there is.

---

You saying it doesn't make it true. I was taught the same thing practically from birth, but it is not supported by an objective reading of the book.

quote:

---

Dont we SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE death in our days? .Go to a cemetery please.Did you see in the cemetery that God didnt lie?

---

God said Adam and Eve would die THAT DAY. They did not die that day. If they had died that day, the cemeteries wouldn't exist because, in the words of T.S. Eliot, "there is no one to bury" as all humanity have died simultaneously.

quote:

---

ITs EVIDENT.Your dictionary definitions have no time conection .

---

Again, the Bible says you are wrong. God said that on the same day when they ate the fruit, they would surely die. Since they lived hundreds of years afterward, you have no case.

quote:

---

Somewhere in the epistles there are a reference of Satan deceiving Eve.

---

You'll have to do better than that.

quote:

---

For the other user i have to say that people who receive Jesus by faith understand the spiritual things but the other ones needs scientifical explanations if they cant achieve it by faith(Jesus said that these ones are not well-ventured).For example Thomas had not faith and Jesus had to show his hands to him.

---

If he appeared to me today and showed me his hands, I'd probably respond just like Thomas did. However, all my attempts to live the life of faith for which I was raised have left me feeling betrayed, alone, and generally ill-prepared to face the real world. I spent years believing that the best response to those who wanted to see it to believe it was "believe and only then will you see." I believed, and continued to believe when I had doubts - but I never saw anything more than I was taught to see, and expected and forced myself to see.[This message has been edited by zephyr, 07-29-2003]

Zephyr,God says that everything he created was good then there is no death before.
Ok but the important is that Adam and Eve died in that day and so God didnt lie.He refers to spiritual death.
If you dont believe me consider the following:
The Jews knows Hebrew very well.They knows the conotations of their words better than yourself.If God lied to Eve they would perceived it very well and they would be angry with God.It didnt happened so an unsaved American like yourself dont stand a chance to people who most appreciates the pentateuch(or wherever it is named).
We are not talking of conceptual or scientific errors here but vocabulary ones.And who knews it better than the Jews themselves.
And Paul had the Holy Spirit who reveals him that Satan possesed the serpent(and he states it).
And as I said in another thread if wasnt Satan who did it who was?
Serpents cant talk and God hadnt gave free will to them.
Of course it wasnt God who possess it nor an ET nor a man from the future with a satellite .The only one logical person is Satan.
Or did you think it was a ventriloque(those people in the streets that have a doll and pretends it talks)?

Newborn,It doesn't seem to me any more incredulous to believe in a talking snake than to believe in most things in Genesis.------------------
Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

If the snake was satan, why is satan not mentiond at all in genesis? The whole six day thing happens, there is a cunning snake etc. but satan is never mentiond.And the jews, for your information, have a very diffrent concept of the devil. They don't personafy him as christians do, he is more a manifestation of human folly, more a spirtual concept than an entetie.look it up at: http://www.religioustolearnce.orgFinaly, if satan posessed that one snake, then why did God curse all snakes?What you are not seeing is the fact that your belifes are your interpretations, and arent necissarly what is written in the book. You are looking at the book in a certain way that, while valid, is not the only way to look at it.As a matter of fact, those who hold views oposit to yours, are actually being more literal than you are as they are interpretting the texts as the words read.

Asgara,
I will give you that I have NOT read the whole thread but I don't believe I need to. You guys are getting hung up on semantics. You ASSUME that the phrase "thou shalt surely die" means PHYSICAL death THEN AND THERE. Death is but a door to another life. Our souls live forever and our bodies cease to house the soul when our bodies stop functioning. Studies have been done at the moment of death and they have shown that the soul IS present in a body and at death the body is a few ounces lighter. Logic would dictate that the soul was what weighed those few ounces. Physical death is only a door to this afterlife. Spiritual death is separation from the presence of GOd.
As far as your ATTEMPT at using the scriptures to prove your point, NOT ONE of those references said that God lied. "Putting a lying spirit in someone" is NOT the same as saying the lie yourself. Whose contorting scripture now? You can deceive someone without SAYING a lie. Just because Adam and Eve didn't keel over on the spot after eating the fruit doesn't mean God lied. BTW, IF you are quoting from a version other the KJV you are using a corrupted text(another topic for discussion) and only God and Satan know how much corruption is in those.
The serpent in Genesis 3 ALLOWED Satan to enter it and THAT is why God cursed the serpent(serpEnt not serpAnt). How is a creature that is in a state of perfection like Eden going to concoct a scheme like that of Genesis 3 on its own? There HAD to be some outside force. Who put these thoughts into the mind of the serpent? Why would a created, living thing just decide one day to doubt it's creator? Are you saying the serpent had an intellect? God used a donkey to talk to Balaam so talking animals are not unheard of in the bible. HOWEVER, an outside force gave the animals the words to say. When God cursed the serpent He said, "..I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it ( the woman's seed)shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel." Whose heel? Why did God switch from "it" to "his"? "His" refers to Jesus. Was a snake/serpent going to bruise the heel of Jesus? NO where in the bible does it say that Jesus was ever near a snake. What does that prophecy mean? Who was God talking to? Maybe He was talking to the one who possessed the serpent.AND I am NOT Jaz or Culverian or any other alternate. I reside in South Korea and have only been in this forum a few weeks.Please forgive any typos. My skills are not that great.
"On Christ the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

Finaly, if satan posessed that one snake, then why did God curse all snakes?What you are not seeing is the fact that your belifes are your interpretations, and arent necissarly what is written in the book. You are looking at the book in a certain way that, while valid, is not the only way to look at it.As a matter of fact, those who hold views oposit to yours, are actually being more literal than you are as they are interpretting the texts as the words read.God cursed all snakes because the serpent allowed itself to be used by Satan. Genesis 3:14 says "Because thou (the serpent) has done this, thou art cursed....." Many scholars believe the serpent walked upright in the beginning but God cursed it to crawl in the dust.What you are not seeing is the fact that your belifes are your interpretations DUH!!!! Sorry, I had to say it. See my post to Asgara to know as to why I believe the serpent allowed Satan into it.

Im not denying that my belifes are my interpretations. But it's your word against mine isn't it?Not only that, Im going by exactly what the book says. And no where in Genesis does it say explicitly that the snake was satan. If you can find that line I implore you do do so!I should ask you, why on earth do you think your interpretation, which relies hevely on you infering and adding things to the text, is correct?When all I have to do is read what the text actually says, in plain language, and see that it says nothing similar to what you think it does.As to the God lied thing,In the Bible, it says "you will die this very day", ok. That's what it says. It dosn't say spiritual death, etc. It says hear and now, right here, if you eat it you die. Ok. If you wan't to read into it, that's fine, but you are adding, it's not what the book says.Second, as far as God putting a lying spirit into someone, comeon?That makes no sense to me, God dosn't lie, so he makes people do it for him? So he recruits people to lie? How does that make God sinless? Does it not make him a co-conspiritor in the perpetration of false whitness?[This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-07-2003]

Theologian63 writes:

quote:

---

You ASSUME that the phrase "thou shalt surely die" means PHYSICAL death THEN AND THERE.

---

Because that's what the Hebrew text directly states. The phrase used is what Hebrew uses to refer to a physical death.It is not some bizarre "interpretation" of the text to say that the Bible means an immediate physical death. That's what the text directly states.

quote:

---

Death is but a door to another life.

---

That's all well and good, but they didn't die. Adam lived for hundreds of years after.

quote:

---

NOT ONE of those references said that God lied.

---

That doesn't mean he didn't. God said that they would die a physical death on the very day they ate from the tree.They didn't.So either god was wrong or god was lying.Which is it?

quote:

---

BTW, IF you are quoting from a version other the KJV you are using a corrupted text

---

BWA-HA-HA!Oh, please! You didn't just say that, did you? I've got a better idea. Why don't we skip all the translations and use the original Hebrew? What does it say?

quote:

---

The serpent in Genesis 3 ALLOWED Satan to enter it

---

That's not what the Bible says:Genesis 3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?Now, where in this is the devil mentioned at all? The text directly states that the serpent was smart.

quote:

---

How is a creature that is in a state of perfection like Eden going to concoct a scheme like that of Genesis 3 on its own?

---

Perhaps because it wasn't a scheme at all. The serpent was simply telling the truth. Note that the serpent does not tell Eve to eat from the tree.

quote:

---

When God cursed the serpent He said, "..I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it ( the woman's seed)shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel." Whose heel? Why did God switch from "it" to "his"? "His" refers to Jesus.

---

No, "his" refers to humans.Remember, Genesis is a Jewish story and the Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Theologian63 writes:

quote:

---

God cursed all snakes because the serpent allowed itself to be used by Satan.

---

That's not what the Bible says:Genesis 3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?Now, where in this is the devil mentioned at all? The text directly states that the serpent was smart.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Yaro,
What version are you quoting? I have NEVER seen the scripture in Genesis 2 say "you will die this very day." I just checked the NIV, RSV, NEB, NKJV and the LB and they ALL say "In the day." not "right here, right now" or "this very day." Nice try.

Sorry if I paraphrased.Here it is from the KJV:Gen 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Note: it says very clearly, "FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE"It says they will die in the day that they eat the fruit, not a hundred years later, and not a spiritual death.Answer my other questions tho, my argument is not relegated to this point alone. Why is your interpretation better than mine?[This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-07-2003]

"Perhaps because it wasn't a scheme at all. The serpent was simply telling the truth. Note that the serpent does not tell Eve to eat from the tree."Telling the truth? What do you base this on? "Yea hath God said," starts doubting God or contradicting Him from the onset. Why would a created thing just one day decide to doubt God and create doubt in the mind of Eve? The serpent didn't tell Eve to eat the fruit because it was a choice of free will.AS for Genesis not saying it was Satan- No kidding Sherlock. Since you are a non-believer you will NOT agree. See II Corinthians 4:4 to know why. Revelation calls Satan the serpent, a little "s" just like Genesis 3. see:Rev. 12:9 and 20:2.WOW! You have a copy of the original Hebrew? I'm impressed. The Sinaiaticus, Vaticanus and Alexandranus manuscripts are all corrupted
by Gnosticism and Origen and take way from the blood atonement of Christ, His Deity and many other doctrines. BTW, they only make up 1% of the family of manuscripts. I'm no lightweight when it comes to Textual criticism.
"Let God be true but every man a liar."
"Sanctify them buy thy truth, thy word is truth."

I beg your pardon?Some Holy Roman Emporor (Frederick Barbarossa??) did that experiment back before 1400 or so, and saw no difference in weight. Do you have a reference to something more recent? If you have a credible source for this, I will cheerfully swim to South Korea wearing a suit of chain-mail armor and buy you a drink.[This message has been edited by Coragyps, 08-07-2003]

Hi Theologian,Glad you made it back here.First of all, I agree...this is a semantic debate. Fundamentalist Christians claim a literal reading of the Bible. Yet when a detracter literally reads a portion of this same bible, the fundamentalist starts making interpretations. It all comes down to semantics...As for your claim that if I'm not using the KJV I am using corrupted text...the KJV was written using existing English translation Bibles such as Tyndale's, Wycliffe's, Coverdale's, the Geneva Bible, and including two revisions of the Bishop's Bible. The men working on this "translation" were also told that readability and literary merit were at least as important as accuracy in scholarship. How this makes the KJV any less "corrupt" than others is very much in question.Your comment about God not "directly" lying is laughable. I guess than that people who hire an assassin to kill someone aren't guilty of anything either. They didn't actually kill anyone did they? So yes, I guess we DO know who is contorting scripture. Contorting, adding to, twisting and definately NOT reading literally.------------------
Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

"Why is your interpretation better than mine?"
I compare scripture with scripture. That's how it is supposed to be done. I'm not denying WHAT the scripture says. I HAVE the KJV right next to me. It's ALL I use. I have been reading it for over 35 years. The KJV, not this particular bible. LOL Some things in the Bible are to be taken literally while others are figurative or have a deeper meaning than what is first read. Why couldn't it mean "begin to die"? Anyone who can read knows Adam and Eve lived many years after that, in fact, Adam was the second oldest person in the Bible, next to Methusaleh. So, either God lied or we don't understand the true meaning behind "thou shalt surely die." I choose to believe the latter. If God lied He is a sinner and is in need of redemption and needs to accept His Son Jesus as His savior. Not only that but He will eventually end up in the lake of fire along with YOU. "But the fearful and unbelieving (YOU),...and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone..." God in Hell? I think not! If you don't want to burn, TURN! Turn from your unbelief and accept Jesus as your Saviour.