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Author Topic:   The Whole Jesus Thing
ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 51 of 286 (155165)
11-02-2004 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Abshalom
12-08-2003 11:23 AM


Re: Atonement
Well, sacrifice when attoning sin was not required. What come from the lips and the heart was more important that the actual Prayer can take the place of sacrifice (see Hosea 14:3 in any Jewish translation, the KJV sort of screwed that one up.. suprise!)
There were 3 principles when dealing with 'sacrifices' or 'Offerings' (Qorban transliterated from the Hebrew). One, the person has to be giving up something. So, the sacrifice of a domestic animal in the temple of your own personal belonging is one thing, a wild animal (that does not belong to anybody) is not acceptable. Or, the offering of food made from flour (which took a substantial amount to prepare) is another offering (I.e. .. it does not have to be a blood sacrifice)
The next concept is the concept of subsitution..,, the item being substituted for the person making the offering, as a token of asking
for forgiveness. The 'sacrifice' is punished instead of the person,
as a measure of gods mercy. This is the concept that the early christians probably used the cruxifiction for.. however, sacrifices
had to be in the temple, the offering unblemished (scorging does blemish someone), and the story of Issac and Abraham was/is taken
as God would never demand a human sacrifice.
In addition, it is the person who was GIVING the sacrifice who's sin was forgiven.
And of course, the most important part is the offering is a way to get closer to god, to live a 'sanctified life'.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 52 of 286 (155167)
11-02-2004 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yaro
12-10-2003 5:39 PM


Well, in that time period (and this was before there was a concept of a 'CHristian god", lambs were one of the most common domestic animals. Since it has to be somethign that is PERSONALLY owned by the person giving the offering, that is the most likely animal for sacrifice.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 53 of 286 (155169)
11-02-2004 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by EasyPriest
11-01-2004 4:31 PM


According to ezikiel, god created evil.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 54 of 286 (155177)
11-02-2004 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Harrism
10-16-2004 5:26 PM


Re: The Whole Jesus Thing
That is, of course, if you follow the Christian mythology and concept of Satan. The Jewish concept of Satan is different. In the Jewish mythology, shaitan (the accusor) as an angel , does not have free will.
His job is to provide the opportunity to do wrong, so that people will have a chance to choose to do right, and therefore become close to god and live a sanctified life.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 60 of 286 (155459)
11-03-2004 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Legend
11-03-2004 6:36 AM


That attitude makes God looks like a egotistical , obnoxious brat.
"Beleive in me the way I want, Or I will burn you in hell forever".
Riggghhtt.
"Jesus loves you and gives you are free gift of eternal life, unless you don't believe in him, then burns you in hell forever"
Riiiight.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 86 of 286 (155626)
11-03-2004 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by cctman
11-03-2004 3:06 PM


Isaiah 45:7:
"Who fashions light and creates darkness, who makes peace and creates evil, I am HaShem who does all this

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 87 of 286 (155627)
11-03-2004 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by cctman
11-03-2004 4:47 PM


If god is 'absolute good' why did he create evil.

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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 90 of 286 (155644)
11-03-2004 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by cctman
11-03-2004 10:25 PM


actually, that is a very poor translation.
Why don't you read it in the Hebrew?? Or, why don't you go to your local
Rabbi (non-messanic), and he will explain it to you.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 95 of 286 (155661)
11-03-2004 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by cctman
11-03-2004 10:58 PM


Yes, I do think that translations make a different. Translations are interpetations, and often reflect the beliefs of the translator.
The Jewish word for evil is "Rah". You can see with the phrase that
the common analogy of 'LIGHT' being 'GOOD', and 'Dark' being evil is
showing that the 'RAH' is accurately translated as EVIL.
It is typical in the Hebrew scriptures to have dual passages, where the same thing is said twice, in a different matter. The concept of "LIGHT" and "Darkness" is the same as 'GOod and Evil'. Thus we see
the mimicing of 'Light' as GOOD and DARKNESS as EVIL. This is a common technique in the Tanakh.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 106 of 286 (156081)
11-04-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Amlodhi
11-04-2004 10:03 AM


I happen to disagree.. and I can point to some Rabbi commentaries that
willl agree with my interpretation.
From http://www.torah.org/learning/ramchal/classes/class40.html
At this point Ramchal lays out four term-pairs used in the Torah to depict the two opposing states of G-d shining His light on the transcendent forces and the world at large, which provides goodness; and His withholding His light, which allows for evil.
Logically enough, the Torah often uses the term light for example to allude to G-d’s bestowing goodness, and darkness to allude to His allowing for evil. A good example would be the verse that reads, I form light as well as create darkness; I make peace as well as create evil (Isaiah 45:7).

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 138 of 286 (157880)
11-10-2004 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by dpardo
11-08-2004 11:53 AM


None of which exlusively and implicitly says Jesus said he was god.
Besides, this John guy wrote about it decades later, so it is unlikely
he would know what Jesus really said, if he existed at all.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 152 by dpardo, posted 11-10-2004 1:56 PM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 139 of 286 (157881)
11-10-2004 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Yaro
11-08-2004 2:13 PM


The use of sacrifice for atonement was used as giving something of value up as a token of your commitment. In the Jewish religion, human sacrifice was not acceptable.. so accordign to Jewish tradition , the
sacrifice of a human to sin would be abhorent,.. that is probably one
of the reasons Paul had to go OUTSIDE of judaism for converts.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 140 of 286 (157882)
11-10-2004 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Angel
11-08-2004 5:00 PM


None of those passages have anything to do with Jesus what so ever. None of those passages, if read in context, has anything to do with any messiah or messiah expections.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 141 of 286 (157883)
11-10-2004 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
11-08-2004 6:44 PM


Re: I proposed it before
The story of barabbas makes the parrell to that clearer too. Oh.. Barabbas , translated from the arameic, means 'Son of the Father'.
Wasn't Jesus supposed to be the 'Son of the Father'??

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 142 of 286 (157884)
11-10-2004 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Angel
11-09-2004 7:55 AM


Re: Where?
Ah yes, the ISAIAH 53 misiterpretation.
If you read it in context (In otherwords, from the previous section), you will see that Isaiah was specifically talking about the nation of ISRAEL, not some messiah.

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