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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
ringo
Member
Posts: 12915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 241 of 329 (448632)
01-14-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
01-14-2008 11:26 AM


Re: Doing The Best We Can
Phat writes:

Survival Of The Fittest certainly never involved voluntary submission to others, now did it?

Sure it did. Survival of the fittest is about reproduction, not fighting to the death. Submission is often a part of reproduction.

Turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbour (with or without reproduction) do make our society - and humanity by extension - more fit for survival.


“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)

“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 01-14-2008 11:26 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 242 of 329 (448634)
01-14-2008 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by IrishRockhound
05-24-2004 5:35 PM


Re: True Whatever???????
Sorry I missed this and apologize for the late reply.

Christianity is just a club. That's all. It is a human club created by human beings for very human purposes. To be a member of some club you need to subscribe to the basic "terms of membership".

In Club Christian the basic membership requirements were set out in the Nicene Creed in about the 4th Century. The goal was to create a basic set of ByLaws that would unite all the different chapters of Club Christian.

Nicene Creed writes:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Since then, many local chapters of Club Christian have added their own local rules and bylaws, for example on the precise method of baptism or confirmation or which Sacraments are required.

Anyone who subscribes to the basic "terms of membership", the Nicene Creed, and is a member in good standing of one of the chapters of Club Christian is a True Christian.

BUT...

being a Christian says nothing about being Godly or Good.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-24-2004 5:35 PM IrishRockhound has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 09-11-2016 7:53 AM jar has responded

  
calvaryoakville 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 1631 days)
Posts: 1
From: Oakville, Toronto, Canada
Joined: 08-09-2012


Message 243 of 329 (670120)
08-09-2012 12:18 AM


True Christian?
The one who accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior and deny himself to follow God's word whatever it takes.

Calvary Fellowship is a proud supporter of spam!

Edited by Admin, : Despamming.


    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 244 of 329 (791070)
09-09-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
05-24-2004 11:52 AM


What Is Scripture?
jar writes:

I would imagine that those who consider themselves Christians will fall into two distinct camps, those who believe that a Christian Must take the Bible literally, and those who believe that a Christian Must Not take the Bible literally.

That is an important distinction and one that I think needs to be made. I doubt that it can be resolved but I do think that it is the bottom line crux of all of the disagreements.

This brings up the question of what is scripture? I have heard you say a time or two that Twain and other secular writing could be called scripture.
Definition writes:

the sacred writings of Christianity contained in the Bible.
"passages of scripture"...the sacred writings of another religion.
noun: scriptures

Do you believe that secular writings can be authoritative and/or sacred? What is the standard? (Im guessing Logic, Reason, and Reality )

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-24-2004 11:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 09-09-2016 9:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 09-10-2016 12:12 PM Phat has responded
 Message 250 by Asgara, posted 09-10-2016 2:57 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 245 of 329 (791071)
09-09-2016 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
09-09-2016 9:39 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Remember almost everything that is in the Bible (whichever Canon is considered) began as secular writing. Most of the Old Testament is a collection of folk tales, just so stories, laws, genealogies, tribal histories and political propaganda. Most of the New Testament consists of Interoffice Memos.

What makes it scripture is a human pronouncement that the writing was inspired and a human selection for inclusion (or exclusion) in (or from) one of the many Canonic Lists.

We decide what is scripture.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 09-09-2016 9:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24406
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 246 of 329 (791076)
09-09-2016 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
09-09-2016 9:49 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
I'm going to assume that Phat has the perspective to know you're blowing hot air.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 09-09-2016 9:49 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 12:37 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 247 of 329 (791079)
09-10-2016 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
09-09-2016 11:01 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Faith writes:

I'm going to assume that Phat has the perspective to know you're blowing hot air.

You should know jars beliefs by now,Faith. I don't believe much of what he says...I honestly think he has concluded that he will never know GOD until after he passes...if even then...but thats his personal beliefs which we wont see.

He might ask us how we know its God and not a bad burrito or other emotional symptom..and I respect that line of logic to a point. I believe that one must either stand for something or fall for anything. Jar would probably agree---and tell us that he tests all scripture and the rest of human writing against logic, reason, and reality. I would argue that humans are incapable of finding God.(But that He finds us) jar would reply that its irrelevant--that we are charged to do for others and that even if there were no God our charge would be the same. This is why I nicknamed him the Apostle To The Atheists. Some folks say they need evidence and that there is none. They would argue that God doesn't exist so its a non argument!

jar writes:

We decide what is scripture.

Do we also decide who or what is God? I seriously doubt that if Jesus came back He would be having a beer with the boys!
jar writes:

What makes it scripture is a human pronouncement that the writing was inspired...

It may be a human pronouncement but it was based and inspired from an actual person who was witnessed to have died and risen again. The reason the books are inspired is because of the Holy Spirit...the comforter. Granted, Mark Twain is inspirational at times, but you would have to show me specific examples of Twain-inspired writings.

Edited by Phat, : formatting


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 11:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 8:09 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 248 of 329 (791086)
09-10-2016 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
09-10-2016 12:37 AM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes:

Do we also decide who or what is God? I seriously doubt that if Jesus came back He would be having a beer with the boys!

But all of the evidence shows that yes, we do decide who or what is God. And we have made that decision many, many, many times; Jesus and Allah and Zeus and Coyote and Raven and Ganesha and ...

Also, according to the Bible stories if Jesus did come back that is exactly where you would find him, hanging out with the boys (and girls). He hung out with tax collectors and sinners and made the beer (well wine) run at the party and threw fish fries at the beach.

Phat writes:

It may be a human pronouncement but it was based and inspired from an actual person who was witnessed to have died and risen again. The reason the books are inspired is because of the Holy Spirit...the comforter.

So you claim but what does the evidence show? There are many Canons, declarations of what is and is not scripture and the only books common to ALL of the different Canons are the first five books of the Old Testament. And that is just within Christianity. Taoists have other scripture equally inspired. Buddhists have other scripture equally inspired. Hindus have other scripture equally inspired.

If the Holy Spirit is the inspiration then why did the Holy Spirit decided differently based on which people were doing the Canonization?

Or do you mean the Holy Spirit inspired those works YOU consider scripture?

The topic is "What is a True Christian" and has been going on for over a decade so far and there is still no universal definition of what a True Christian is.

There never will be.

You ask "What is scripture?". That too is a topic that has been going on for about 2000 years just within Christianity and far longer in many of the other Great Religions and there is still no universal definition of what Scripture is beyond the simple statement that Scripture is an inspired story.

There never will be.

Both questions are simply human constructs and the answers will depend directly on the humans that make the assignments.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 12:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 8:23 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 249 of 329 (791099)
09-10-2016 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
09-09-2016 9:39 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes:

Definition writes:
the sacred writings of Christianity contained in the Bible.


When Paul told Timothy that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God" do you think he meant the letters that he was going to write next week?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 09-09-2016 9:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 7:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Asgara
Member
Posts: 1779
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 250 of 329 (791105)
09-10-2016 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
09-09-2016 9:39 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strong...

1. a writing, thing written

2. the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents

3. a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture

What is the first meaning Stong's gives the word γραφή (graphē?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 09-09-2016 9:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 251 of 329 (791111)
09-10-2016 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ringo
09-10-2016 12:12 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
ringo writes:

When Paul told Timothy that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God" do you think he meant the letters that he was going to write next week?

No, of course not. We have had an ongoing argument on Source vs Content. Your side has basically declared that determination of source (in regards to whether it came from God) is impossible without evidence. The content of a phrase is thus the standard.
If Paul tells Timothy that scripture is inspired by God, what would you expect Timothys next questions to be?
A) Paul, do I believe everything you say or write? How do I test for integrity?
B) I have no questions. Paul tells me its from God, I believe Paul.
C) Do I believe what I feel or should I look for evidence?

I believe what I feel. Internally it seems right to me. I suppose what you contrarians and atheists are challenging me to do is look for evidence and never stop questioning. If so, thanks for looking out. My only question to you is this: Will you ever believe or will you wait until an apple hits you on the head?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 09-10-2016 12:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 09-11-2016 2:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 5:30 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 252 of 329 (791112)
09-10-2016 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Asgara
09-10-2016 2:57 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
In the context of the Bible, it refers to the subject of the Bible.

Look at what I asked Ringo in the prior thread. Paul was sending what jar would call an interoffice memo. Granted it was simply something written. My question is "would anyone of us expect Timothy to question it"? Why or why not?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Asgara, posted 09-10-2016 2:57 PM Asgara has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 253 of 329 (791113)
09-10-2016 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
09-10-2016 8:09 AM


Re: What Is Scripture?
jar writes:

You ask "What is scripture?". That too is a topic that has been going on for about 2000 years just within Christianity and far longer in many of the other Great Religions and there is still no universal definition of what Scripture is beyond the simple statement that Scripture is an inspired story.

There never will be.

Both questions are simply human constructs and the answers will depend directly on the humans that make the assignments.

Of course the answer depends on the humans. He Who Has An Ear Let Him Hear! If someone yells "Fire! Fire!" Are you gonna sit around and test for source or content? Are you gonna stop and use logic, reason, and reality beyond trying to smell smoke or see flames?

Im not expecting folks to agree with my answers. I am expecting folks to accept that I have accepted the fire and am attempting to share my acceptance. You all can ask philosophical questions on the porch of battleship gray until sunrise if you want.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 8:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 9:03 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 254 of 329 (791114)
09-10-2016 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
09-10-2016 8:23 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes:

Of course the answer depends on the humans. He Who Has An Ear Let Him Hear!

That is one of those trite bumper sticker non thinking worthless rejoinders.

Phat writes:

If someone yells "Fire! Fire!" Are you gonna sit around and test for source or content? Are you gonna stop and use logic, reason, and reality beyond trying to smell smoke or see flames?

I am absolutely gonna test content and source and use logic, reason, and reality beyond trying to smell smoke or see flames. In fact I have even trained for just that situation as did every kid in our family.

Phat writes:

Im not expecting folks to agree with my answers. I am expecting folks to accept that I have accepted the fire and am attempting to share my acceptance.

No one questions the fact that you have accepted what you believe. The issue is that you seem to want others to share your beliefs and not question what you share. That's just silly as well as unreasonable.

Phat writes:

You all can ask philosophical questions on the porch of battleship gray until sunrise if you want.

But so far no one is asking philosophical questions, rather they are asking very practical reality based questions. If you wish for folk to do more than agree that you believe what you believe, if you wish to convince folk that you have some content that should be considered, then you need to do far more than simply shout Fire Fire or Lord Lord or Born Again or Transformed or Touch by the Holy Spirit.

The question most recently asked by you is "What is scripture?" and the answer is that even within Christianity there is no universal or uniform answer. You seem to want to fall back on the Holy Spirit (or Jesus or God or most any other insubstantial critter) instead of addressing facts and reality. The reality is "So far even within Christianity there is no universal accepted list of what is or is not scriptural beyond the first five books of the Old Testament." If there is some Holy Spirit actually guiding the process, why has that Holy Spirit been unable to get anything as simple as a definitive list of what is and is not scriptural accepted?"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 8:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 09-11-2016 7:40 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 255 of 329 (791118)
09-11-2016 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by jar
09-10-2016 9:03 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
The reality is "So far even within Christianity there is no universal accepted list of what is or is not scriptural beyond the first five books of the Old Testament."
Perhaps not universally but there is a majority agreement concerning the New Testament.
If there is some Holy Spirit actually guiding the process, why has that Holy Spirit been unable to get anything as simple as a definitive list of what is and is not scriptural accepted?"
Because there are a few people whom are unimpressed by Pauls marketing. I would honestly estimate that 9 out of 10 Christian churches do in fact accept the New Testament. The fact that a few of you belong to a contrarian club brings into question the word "definitive". The reason,in my opinion, that the Holy Spirit has been unable to achieve unity is because some people refuse to accept it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 9:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 09-11-2016 8:11 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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