A question that was first presented by Socrates.

Only one is good - God.God is good, God in times past might have commanded that which is right for those of whom he judges. If man sins and does wrong/evil, God has in times past visited the evil of his doings. But now, we have the law of the spirit of life, this is the New Testament, that we do good, not right. That we love our enemy, rather than hate him, that we turn our other cheek BECAUSE God has been good, and could have done right with us. Yet I suppose it might be right that a violent man is imprisoned and unforgiven, likewise, with our sin it would also be right that we perish, but God has been good, and that is why we perish not and must also be good, because of Christ.God is always right and always good, and all his plans are just.

Actually I know the genesis account pretty well... ugh, I was just through the minutiae of it with someone else in another thread.I wasn't trying to suggest that the tree was more than knowledge of good and evil, and that they did or did not actually get that knowledge.The point I was trying to make was that once they knew good and evil they felt that nakedness was bad and had so had to be clothed. Yet strangely God had placed them in that state and appears to have been quite content to have them live that way. He even realized something was "wrong" when they were hiding and wearing clothes.So if nakedness was bad, why had God made and kept them in that condition? Doesn't that set a dichotomy between Good and good? This seems to be a way to explain that problem, but it really isn't fleshed out in scripture.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I think you should respond directly to Darth because you seem to be hitting on exactly the point he wants to discuss.It looks like you might be agreeing with me.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I don't know if we agree, we shall see. God is good. Good is from God, because God created all things, he rejected the evil and chose the good. He is the light, and he is the only one who is good.Him that is wicked, in times past God has visited those sins upon him. Oh if only they had only hearkened unto God's commandments, then their peace would have been as a river.All good things are from God. Every true gift comes down from heaven - even the free gift of life.

Would you, then, say that god can change its mind about what's good and what's not if it wants to?

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The Laminator
B ULLS HITFor goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Mmmmmmaybe we don't agree. Why did he make and keep us naked? He seemed to think that was good, but when they ate from the tree of knowledge, they learned it was evil. Then God got pretty pissed.I realize that is taking things literally and there are more metaphorical interpretations (which I am fond of myself), but it does raise a question (IMO).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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So if nakedness was bad, why had God made and kept them in that condition? Doesn't that set a dichotomy between Good and good?

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Actually, I don't see a problem here. Nakedness is not wrong, but feeling shame about one's nakedness and doing nothing about it is wrong. Before they ate of the fruit they did not feel shame and therefore it was not wrong. I think this is a model of how we sense morality. If we feel shameful about a certain act then most likely it is a sin. This gives christians a "sin" barometer, if you will. When making decisions about what is right or wrong christians are to look inward and listen to what their sense of morality is telling them.

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Him that is wicked, in times past God has visited those sins upon him. Oh if only they had only hearkened unto God's commandments, then their peace would have been as a river.

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To tell you the truth Mike, I have always had a problem with this. Here in the states there is a silly little saying, "What Would Jesus Do?" Well, it appears that if we are to follow His Father that we are to smite our enemies with utter disregard. If it is right to destroy those who do not follow God's Word, then shouldn't the church be sending soldiers instead of missionaries. I know that the New Covenant changed things, but the switch from a vengeful God to a forgiving Intercessor almost looks like an admission of guilt.

Well?

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The Laminator
B ULLS HITFor goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

No Loudmouth, the change isn't in God. God was always good, if he chose to punish the dispicably wicked, like for example " the wicked will perish " - that won't be a good thing to God - He will "visit the evil of YOUR doings" (not God's doings) if God says "Oh if thou hadst only hearkened unto my commandments, then thy peace would have been as a river ", then isn't it apparent that God regrets the evil of human being's doings??. The problem is that the world is teaching you to hate God, by trying to show him as evil in the OT, rather than showing you how God really feels. INDEED he is sorrowful, that they preferred evil and sin rather than good. But the world teaches you that the evil is from God, this is a terrible voice you listen to, who tries to get you to see God as the evil, when the real enemy - he came to cast out.Are you saying it is wrong that the wicked are punished>? Even your world punishes the wicked.Yet, the OT - as I said, was in "times passed", now we see that God has been good, even to the sinful as everyone is, and so - we must be good.There is no removing wht Christ did and said, yet you say; No. God is justice, God will repay - but rather God says turn the other cheek, bless those that curse you. Because God has been good, we now must be good, and do good rather than right.Christ taught peace, and gave us the choice to believe or not. That gives us NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to judge others, if they don't believe.Christ said forgive because God has forgiven.Using the OT against us is the wrongful use of scripture, and teaches nothing - even now we have the law of the spirit of life, not the law of sin and death like in the OT.

So if some tribe in a far-off land had never heard of the Judeo-Christian god (or Socrates for that matter), they would have no conception of good?

mike the wiz writes:

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God was always good

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Even when he commits sin? God readily admits in the Bible that he makes mistakes. Take, for example, the flood. After it is over, god admits he screwed up and promises Noah that he'll never do it again.In fact, if you read the creation stories of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, you can see a shift in the personality of god. In Gen 1, god is perfect, makes no mistakes, and everything is good. But in Gen 2, god is continually backing up and correcting for things that were done incompletely and incorrectly. For the first time, we hear god say, "It is not good" (in reference to man being alone). Why is man alone if it is not good? Wouldn't god always do good? After all, in Gen 1, god had the sense to create male and female together at the same time.If god always does good, what does that mean when god changes his mind? Since humans are supposed to know good and evil due to having eaten from the tree of knowledge, shouldn't we be able to tell if god is doing good?You seem to be saying that there is no objective standard as to what good is. Good is only what god does and since god is fickle and inconstant, that means there is no such thing as a true "good." Morality is capricious and arbitrary, dependent upon whim.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

For to be carnally minded is death; But to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against GodIt is only a carnal mind that can say, " Even when he commits sin? ". God hasn't sinned, humans have. Is it not lawful for God to do what he will with his own? Is his eye evil, because he is good?Now in my previous messages, I said that the punishment of the wicked for their evil, is justified by God's righteouss anger.You being not of the spirit, will have it that God is guilty, rather than men.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-26-2004 01:43 PM

MTW God has killed, is this not a sin according to god?

I assume you are a witness of God killing someone by saying this?Also, a sin is something done against God.God has been killed, for humans, for their sins. Yes, he took the punishment of those who should have been punished. Who are you that you can tell God he is sinful? - can you then throw God into jail? Can you bind him and take him to hell? Oh arrogant men of carnal thought, how long will God suffer your tongues against him? Can you change reality? Can you make it so that you can judge and condemn God? How long does this futile show of puny dust last? Like the grass that withers - so does man, and all his sayings thereof - but Christ's words shall never pass.