should creationism be taught in schools?

Here in the US, it is a very, very rare high school that offers a course on philosophy or religion.I can think of no more relevant topic for a science class that the question What is science? I also do not see why it would be inappropriate to discuss what makes a give theory a successful scientific theory.Finally, creationism is not going to go away very soon. The high school students are going to be exposed to it outside of school. They are going to hear the arguments of the creationists. My guess is that the students are not going to remember enough of their high school lessons to say, "That creationist argument is incorrect, because according the the dry, abstract lecture I heard two years ago...." On the other hand, if a science teacher were to say, "Here is a typical creationist argument: blah blah blah. Here is why it is not a correct argument...." I feel the student will be much more likely to remember why the argument is not correct.At any rate, I cannot fathom why creationism should not be disussed in a science class. It's like not discussing the geocentric model of the solar system and how the sun-centered model is more accurate. Or not discussing spontaneous generation and how that idea was found to be invalid.In fact, not discussing creationism is worse than not discussing the geocentric model. There is not well-funded, well-connected geocentrism movement that is succeeding at watering down physics education as a wedge toward the goal of making conservative, evangelical Christianity the state religion. On the other hand, there is a well-funded, well-connected creationist movement, and it would be a failure of the educational system if it did not provide its students with the tools to combat it. And I don't see how the tools can be provided without explicitly discussing creationism itself.

I want if off money and out of the pledge.the pledge should be restored to it's intended message (including equality) or be dropped all together (I think the founding fathers would be appalled at the idea - you either are a patriot or you are not, and no pledge will make a difference in that)it is a christian group that wants the "in god we trust" off of money because THEY feel it is innappropriate.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Not necessarily so. European countries' school systems are different than ours. While you can still choose what field you want to study during college, they have to pick their majors in grade school. Then, they only study what they chose and nothing else.This is why when we compare test scores of American students to foreign students that we find American scores are generally lower. This is because while all American students (good and bad students) take these exams, other students take the exams of their majors. In other words, we are comparing test scores of everybody in the US to test scores of math majors in other countries. It's simply not fair.There are quite a few foreign students in my school. The ones that are literature majors don't even know what F=ma means. The science students, on the other hand, don't know anything about literature.

I was a Peace Corps volunteer teaching secondary school physics in Africa. I came in contact with volunteer teachers from various European countries, trained as teachers in those countries (usually they were part of the VSO). To be honest, I was never all that impressed by their education -- or even the depth or breadth of knowledge in their own subjects. Of course, I don't yet know many contemporary American high school teachers, so I can't really compare with the depth or breadth of knowledge of a comparable group -- but my high school teachers (when Alaska was swimming in oil money) were very well educated, and most had Master degrees in their fields (that's actually in their fields, not Master degrees in education).

Just so you give me a 'by' on relearning the pledge and don't try to take 'Play Ball!'out of the anthem.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Wow! Most of my high school teachers had education degrees instead of what they were teaching. To be honest, I learned a lot from them then, but if I go back there now I will not be able to learn anything at all.

"School" seems to used in a number of different ways in the states.Just so we are all on the same page - for us brits (:School* = primary 5-10, Secondary 11-16 (secondary is where you do General Certificates Secondary Education - GCSEs. English, maths and a few other things are core and then the student picks some options GCSEs. Thus you have a maths GCSE mark (A* to ungraded), English etc. None of those subjects are considered Majors.College/6th form (Further Education) = 16-18. Numerous courses but for our purposes the A-level (or to be technical Advanced-GCSE) is the important one. The A-Levels you can take are decided by your GCSEs and your Degree course is decided by your A-level results. None of those subjects are considered Majors.University (Higher Education)= 18 onwards. This is where you do your Degree. Never referred to as school (however some departments are called schools). Some courses are refered to in Major/Minor terms. But generally we don't think of it in those terms. Most courses are purely Major with no minor if you follow me.....* There are some quirks but that is basically it.This message has been edited by General Krull, 25-Apr-2005 03:08 PMThis message has been edited by General Krull, 25-Apr-2005 03:09 PM

Here in the states you usually see one of several ways of using such term.The most common for school includes grade 1-12 (basically from around age 6-18). Most areas also have some form of pre-schooling that is primarily meant to get kids ready for school, teach social skills and the settings for later education.There are variation on that, for example the school I went to used grade from 1-6 and then Forms for the higher levels. Many are also broken down into Elementary (1-6), Middle school (&-9) and High for grade 10-12. Again, just to be different the school I went to called them Lower, Middle and Upper.After completing those you can go on tho higher levels. There are various associate degree programs that are generally trade specific.College and University may be quite different. Here generally a University is a collection of Colleges, often related to a particular State school system. Colleges are usually stand alone schools, often private in nature. For example, each state has a state university that has campuses located geographically as population requires.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Shouldn't we teach science in science class?

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Absolutely, that's my original point. Keep creationism out of the classroom and stick to teaching science.

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Your argument appears to be that, by virtue of their guaranteed freedom of speech, private companies can publish lies.

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They can of course, but that's not the point. (what lies?)

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But the same guaranteed freedom of speech means that school book publishers are required to withhold the truth.

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Truth? What truth are they withholding? I'm not following you.I'm saying that schools and the boards that govern them are in turn "governed" or indirectly controlled by the public they serve. If the general public desires a disclaimer placed in science textbooks and the school board members view this as a way to appease their constituency, then it is a possible solution to the great divide.But this has nothing to do with bible publishers. There are no group of activist pushing them to do anything. Since they do not have a governing board accountable to the general public, they can publish their books without disclaimers. Who is going to object? (Besides here at EvC)Are you asking whether I think this is fair?

Bravo! I totally agree. You might find it interesting that I was actually able to conduct this experiment a couple of years ago. I was on the Board of Governors of a small, international private school, and was intensely interested in the science curriculum. The school was one of a handful of International Baccalaureate World (full k-12 IB curriculum) schools. I was asked to provide a two-day module on creationism, specifically YEC, for inclusion in the IB Biology course (for those unfamiliar with IB, this represents a two-year course of studies focused on biology, more or less equivalent to the Brit A level and far beyond the standard US AP Biology). It was, in fact as you suggested, part of the "What is Science" section of the course. I had a ball putting it together - actually with substantial help from a former poster on EvCForum known as TranquilityBase. It included the key YEC "arguments", and a Q/A session where the students were asked what evidence they would expect to find if the arguments were true.Now admittedly, the kids were opt-in biology students - bio was a subject they wanted to seriously study, so they probably weren't representative of US high school students. Anyway, to make a long story short, I was told they absolutely ate it up (I wasn't the teacher, just the developer). They were able to use what they had already learned about the scientific method to do a more than adequate job of seeing that the entire YEC concept held zero water. Quite a lesson.You probably couldn't do anything equivalent in the US public high schools. Most US students I've known simply don't have the grounding to be able to handle it - not to mention the legal issues. Still, it was a genuine eye-opener for me to see that secondary school students not only were capable of dealing with the issue, but capable of dealing with it in a straight-forward scientific manner. And, as the creationists continue to insist, arriving at "their own conclusions based on the evidence". Of course, YEC came out looking rather badly so it might be an object lesson along the lines of "be careful what you wish for".

Ya know what's funny? I heard a debate on CSPAN radio back in March between a pro-ID lawyer and anti-ID science writer. The only surprise came when the pro-ID guy pointed out that, on Constitutional grounds, people in the US had the right to teach their kids anything they wanted, no matter how stupid (his words). And the anti-ID guy agreed.Maybe YEC should be taught in schools. After all, the US will always need lawyers and burger flippers.

The relevent older topic is A Request for Tranquility Base. The topic is still open; It was last posted to 11/22/02.I haven't reviewed the cited topic, but I suspect that a "grand conclusion" or "final product" message was never posted. I think such a thing would make a good Columnist's Corner topic. Q, if you're up to doing such, please contact admin@. Such a topic should be proposed and refined "off forum", and the result can be posted by Admin, as message 1 of the new "CC" topic.Adminnemooseus

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Maybe YEC should be taught in schools. After all, the US will always need lawyers and burger flippers.

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Did you intend to respond to me or as a general post?

Perhaps it is time to move away from textbooks?Information is more readily now than ever before. Sure, it is a jumble out there, but there is also good information buried in the morass: and perhaps what kids really need to fully move onto the "information highway" is {drivers ed} classes.Then we don't need to worry about a proliferation of ...
enjoy edited img tags to fix page width - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 04-28-2005 10:10 PM

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}