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Author Topic:   should creationism be taught in schools?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 301 (201403)
04-23-2005 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
04-23-2005 3:05 AM


My thoughts exactly.
Seeing how important this issue is politically, people cannot really escape from the creationism/evolution "debate", so kids should be exposed to it in school. I think it should be part of the biology curriculum, to show why creationism fails as science, why the theory of evolution works, and, most importantly, why the "arguments" for creationism are almost all based on misunderstandings of basic science and what the theory of evolution actually is.

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 Message 8 by mick, posted 04-23-2005 2:05 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 301 (202187)
04-25-2005 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mick
04-23-2005 2:05 PM


Re: My thoughts exactly.
I disagree completely. Creationism is a completely relevant topic for any science class. First, it is a matter of political controversey that is not going to go away simply by being ignored. Second, evolution is one of the most successful scientific theories we have -- discussing the objections of the creationists would be ideal to explain the nature of science in general, and how the theory of evolution has passed all of the tests put to it in particular. Finally, creationism itself is a wonderful example of pseudoscience -- going through some of the tenets of creationism would be a great way to explain to the students what they should be watching out for.
I think that talking about creationism would be a great pedagogic tool to bring the students to a deeper understanding of the theory of evolution.

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 Message 44 by dsv, posted 04-25-2005 12:16 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 301 (202203)
04-25-2005 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by dsv
04-25-2005 12:16 PM


Re: My thoughts exactly.
Here in the US, it is a very, very rare high school that offers a course on philosophy or religion.
I can think of no more relevant topic for a science class that the question What is science? I also do not see why it would be inappropriate to discuss what makes a give theory a successful scientific theory.
Finally, creationism is not going to go away very soon. The high school students are going to be exposed to it outside of school. They are going to hear the arguments of the creationists. My guess is that the students are not going to remember enough of their high school lessons to say, "That creationist argument is incorrect, because according the the dry, abstract lecture I heard two years ago...." On the other hand, if a science teacher were to say, "Here is a typical creationist argument: blah blah blah. Here is why it is not a correct argument...." I feel the student will be much more likely to remember why the argument is not correct.
At any rate, I cannot fathom why creationism should not be disussed in a science class. It's like not discussing the geocentric model of the solar system and how the sun-centered model is more accurate. Or not discussing spontaneous generation and how that idea was found to be invalid.
In fact, not discussing creationism is worse than not discussing the geocentric model. There is not well-funded, well-connected geocentrism movement that is succeeding at watering down physics education as a wedge toward the goal of making conservative, evangelical Christianity the state religion. On the other hand, there is a well-funded, well-connected creationist movement, and it would be a failure of the educational system if it did not provide its students with the tools to combat it. And I don't see how the tools can be provided without explicitly discussing creationism itself.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 301 (202228)
04-25-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by coffee_addict
04-25-2005 1:49 PM


If I may add my own anecdotal evidence.
I was a Peace Corps volunteer teaching secondary school physics in Africa. I came in contact with volunteer teachers from various European countries, trained as teachers in those countries (usually they were part of the VSO). To be honest, I was never all that impressed by their education -- or even the depth or breadth of knowledge in their own subjects. Of course, I don't yet know many contemporary American high school teachers, so I can't really compare with the depth or breadth of knowledge of a comparable group -- but my high school teachers (when Alaska was swimming in oil money) were very well educated, and most had Master degrees in their fields (that's actually in their fields, not Master degrees in education).

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 301 (282025)
01-27-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by heebs197
01-26-2006 9:49 PM


quote:
I think Creationism should be taught in schools.
Sure, why not? We'll put it into the same class as the Flat Earth Theory and Holocaust Denial.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 301 (340049)
08-14-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by carbonstar
08-12-2006 12:30 PM


quote:
There is no way that Creationism can be tested at all.
Actually, creationist, specifically, the young-earth creationism promoted by most Biblical literalists in the U.S. can be tested. One makes predictions based on the theory, and then sees whether the predicted phenomena are observed. Let's give it a try, shall we?
(1) If the earth is less than 10,000 years old, and if radiometric dating gives consistent dates, then all reliable radiometric dates should be less than 10,000 years old.
In actuality, radiometric dating does give consistent dates; however, the dating consistently shows a long, four billion year history as described by conventional geology.
(2) If the universe is less than 10,000 years old, we should only be able to see stars that are less than 10,000 light years away. Furthermore, as time passes, more stars should become visible as enough time has passed for the light to reach us from those stars.
Again, in real life we see stars and galaxies out to billions of light years away.
(3) If all species were specially created, then in so far as there are similar characteristics among different species, these similarities should be mixed among the species in such a way that it should be possible to produce significantly different nested heirarchical patterns.
In reality, the different characteristics that serve to identify different species are not distributed randomly; essentially the same nested heirarchy is produced no matter who does the classification and the methods that person chooses.
(4) If the earth is only 10,000 years old, then the geologic column should consist of granitic or basaltic bedrock overlain by sediments that can be accounted for by known depositional methods operating over 10,000 years, perhaps including the originally created topsoil.
In fact, in most places the geologic column contains deep, deep layers of lithified sediments that have resulted from ancient, and now non-existent, rivers, seas, deserts. Furthermore, these layers show chemical and structural changes that are known to take place only over very long time periods under conditions of very high heat and pressure.
So creationism doesn't pass the obvious tests that can be applied. Of course, the creationists try to explain these away; nothing wrong with that in itself -- one always tries to understand why a theory does not match the observations before one throws out the theory. However, the creationist explanations either cannot be tested themselves, or, when they can be tested, themselves predict phenomena that are not observed.
That is why the first geologists, working under the creationist paradigm, had to eventually abandon creationism and adopt geologic theories that involved known processes operating over long periods of time.

"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 301 (435850)
11-23-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Beretta
11-23-2007 10:05 AM


You see this is an assumption -how do we know that?
The same way that we know anything in science -- one makes a prediction of what we would observe in the geologic record if the assumption were true, and then check to see whether we actually observe it. If the predicted phenomenon is observed, then it increases our confidence that the assumption is correct.
Just like every other science operates.
If predicted phenomena were never, ever observed, but in each and every case the exact opposite were observed, then the uniformitarian assumption would have been discarded.
Just like what happens in every other science.
Added by edit:
I could have sworn that this was already explained to you. Am I confusing you with someone else?
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

Computers have cut-and-paste functions. So does right-wing historical memory. -- Rick Perlstein

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 301 (435867)
11-23-2007 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by IrishRockhound
11-22-2007 8:55 AM


I think the Irish school curriculum deals appropriately with creationism, i.e. it doesn't mention it at all to the best of my knowledge. They have enough to teach as it is, and I expect American schools are in a similar situation.
This may be good for Ireland, but earlier in this thread I gave my reasons that creationism should be on the school curriculum here in the US. (You might want to read the posts to which this was a response to get the full context of my remarks.) Of course, this isn't actually teaching creationism but using creationism as a tool to teach what the scientific method is and how it works, and also how to distinguish pseudoscience from real science.
Sadly, we in the US don't have the luxury of ignoring creationism.
Even more sadly, my idea probably wouldn't really work since I doubt that a lot of US high school biology or science teachers, especially in the areas where it's need the most, have the proper training or credentials to actually place creationism in its proper scientific context.

Computers have cut-and-paste functions. So does right-wing historical memory. -- Rick Perlstein

This message is a reply to:
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