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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 175 of 300 (276886)
01-07-2006 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 10:50 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
Can an imprint occur when nothing actually happened?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:50 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:57 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 177 of 300 (276894)
01-07-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by crashfrog
01-07-2006 10:52 PM


Re: Can anyone define a miracle for me? Anyone?
But I didn't put forth a theory as to how sexual intercourse "creates souls". I put forth a possible theory whereby one can, provided the knowledge of quantum gravity become more established and clarified, a potential for one to examine to see if a "soul" exists in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:46 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 178 of 300 (276902)
01-07-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 10:57 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
I'm talking about a child receiving a heart transplant from another child -- and the child who received the transplant starting to have nightmares about a man killing her -- and the girl having such vivid dreams that her parents look into the situation only to find that the original organ donor was indeed murdered -- and the child having such vivid dreams that she is able to identify the killer of the original donor in a police line-up -- and get the murderer convicted and put into jail based on the testimony of the child who received the heart transplant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:06 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 180 of 300 (276910)
01-07-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:06 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
But it does make for an interesting read...
Cellular Memory in Organ Transplants
Leslie A. Takeuchi, BA, PTA
In addition to this, it does seem to be highly linked with the idea of answering the question, "Can an imprint occur when nothing actually happened?" In the organ recipients case, nothing actually happened directly to them. They do, however, seem to be experiencing "imprints" nonetheless.
At the very least, there seems to be some corroborative evidence that one's consciuosness can exist (at least in part) after death.
Edit: corrected spelling, clarified points.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-07-2006 11:14 PM

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 Message 179 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:06 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:28 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 211 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 12:49 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 212 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:51 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 183 of 300 (276918)
01-07-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by pink sasquatch
01-07-2006 11:12 PM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
So you're using this excuse as a reason not to look at all then?
It seems to me that a pattern should be evident. Furthermore, your definition of "supernatural" seems to be linked to the idea of "impossible". My definition of "supernatural" is more closely related to "unexplained".
Now, for example, if one did check a report for restored limbs, and one did actually find the bone-structure exactly as I noted before, would that be considered an evidence that something "supernatural" occured?
You can use whichever defintion you prefer to answer this.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-07-2006 11:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:12 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:33 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 184 of 300 (276926)
01-07-2006 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by pink sasquatch
01-07-2006 11:14 PM


hee hee
Shock and Awe!
(wait a sec...that should be reversed)

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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 188 of 300 (276935)
01-07-2006 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:28 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
That's basically my thoughts on the matter too.
Technically speaking when someone says they don't beleive in the "supernatural", it usually means they believe that our knowledge basically can cover and explain most things.
It remains, however, very possible for a "soul" to exist in purely naturalistic terms -- it's just relegated to the "realm of the supernatural" because we can't explain it yet.
Technically speaking, in regards to the supernatural, I am an atheist. If it's real then it's real regardless of whether we can explain it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:28 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:41 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 202 of 300 (276990)
01-08-2006 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by pink sasquatch
01-07-2006 11:33 PM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
Let's back up a little bit here...
hypothetical situation writes:
Consider the fact that the uniformity of experience of people around the world has been that once a human limb has been amputated, it does not grow back. What would you think if a friend of yours, a scientist of the highest integrity with a Ph.D. in physics from Harvard, were to tell you that she was off in Spain last summer and met a man who used to have no legs but now walks on two fine, healthy limbs. She tells you that a holy man rubbed oil on his stumps and his legs grew back. He lives in a small village and all the villagers attest to this "miracle." Your friend is convinced a miracle occurred. What would you believe? To believe in this miracle would be to reject the principle of the uniformity of experience, upon which laws of nature are based. It would be to reject a fundamental assumption of all science, that the laws of nature are inviolate. The miracle cannot be believed without abandoning a basic principle of empirical knowledge: that like things under like circumstances produce like results.
Of course there is another constant, another product of uniform experience which should not be forgotten: the tendency of people at all times in all ages to desire wondrous events, to be deluded about them, to fabricate them, create them, embellish them, enhance them, and come to believe in the absolute truth of the creations of their own passions and heated imaginations. Does this mean that miracles cannot occur? Of course not. It means, however, that when a miracle is reported the probability will always be greater that the person doing the reporting is mistaken, deluded or a fraud than that the miracle really occurred. To believe in a miracle, as Hume said, is not an act of reason but of faith.
Now, you noted:
pink sasquatch writes:
First, since noone has ever analyzed a regenerated human limb before, it would be difficult to know what the data meant. (Though if there was an opportunity to analyze several of these alleged regeneration cases it would get more interesting.)
Um yeah...that's the whole point of this discussion...how do you prove that an alleged miracle took place?
Second, you said:
pink sasquatch writes:
Second, better documentation would need to exist that the limbs were gone at some point than "I know this person who know this really smart person who totally believes that this village is convinced this guy's legs regrew!"
This has already been covered in the text provided by schrafinator.
Now here's the situation:
hypothetical situation writes:
Consider the fact that the uniformity of experience of people around the world has been that once a human limb has been amputated, it does not grow back. What would you think if a friend of yours, a scientist of the highest integrity with a Ph.D. in physics from Harvard, were to tell you that she was off in Spain last summer and met a man who used to have no legs but now walks on two fine, healthy limbs. She tells you that a holy man rubbed oil on his stumps and his legs grew back. He lives in a small village and all the villagers attest to this "miracle." Your friend is convinced a miracle occurred.
Now, how do you prove this is true?
If you dismiss it out of hand without investigating it further, then you are not actually engaging in the scientific method at all. You're just blowing it off because your mind's already made up. It's not totally blowing it off because reports like this have happened before and have proven to be false. But, since this is a medical expert who happens to be your best friend, it seems as though you should investigate it further.
Now, if you at least look into it and see if there is any pattern like the one I noted might be apparent, then you are actually engaging in the scientific method. At the very least you're preseting a potentially testable hypothesis.
Going one step further, if indeed, based on the reported hypothetical situation above, you do find a very odd bone growth which has a clear break in the bone showing age on one side (the side which is claimed to have existed already), and no apparent age on the other side (the side which is claimed to have miraculously regrown), what would you conclude?
Consequently, in regards to your claims above...
pink sasquatch writes:
There are always evidence-based naturalistic explanations for supernatural claims.
There are always faith-based supernatural explanations for naturalistic claims.
...I would like to point you in the direction of this link...
Scientific Evidence for Answered Prayer and the Existence of God
As far as I can tell, these studies seem to be preliminary evidence that there is a faith-based supernatural* explanation for a supernatural* claim.
*Using my definition of supernatural.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-08-2006 12:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:33 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-08-2006 1:02 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 203 of 300 (276993)
01-08-2006 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:41 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
But just because it exists outside of the known universe and does not follow the laws that we are familiar with does not make it unreal. It's just beyond our current ability to explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:41 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 12:38 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 260 by sidelined, posted 01-08-2006 11:17 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 204 of 300 (276994)
01-08-2006 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by macaroniandcheese
01-08-2006 12:04 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
Actually, some neurologists would disagree with you on this.

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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 205 of 300 (277004)
01-08-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by nwr
01-07-2006 11:44 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
What's your answer?
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-08-2006 12:30 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by nwr, posted 01-07-2006 11:44 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 12:38 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 215 of 300 (277065)
01-08-2006 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Ben!
01-08-2006 12:38 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
Ben writes:
...and that it will take some learning about how the brain works in order for you to understand why.
Ok...let's tackle this one topic...
It seems to me that you're basically conclusing that mind (or consciousness) is a function of matter -- matter that has attained a certain degree of organization.
Am I correct with that assumption?
If so, some neurosurgurians in the field has concluded otherwise.
For example, Wilder Penfield actually changed his mind on this very topic based on his own investigations into neurological connections. Penfield is actually considerd the father of modern neurosurgury -- and he, like you, actually started off with the idea that consciousness somehow emanated from the neural activities of the brain.
Penfield writes:
Through my own scientific career, I, like other scientists, have struggled to prove that the brain accounts for the mind.
But through performing surgery on more than a thousand epileptic patients, he encountered concrete evidence that the brain and the mind are actually distinct from each other, although they clearly interact.
Lee Edward Travis writes:
Penfield would stimulate electrically the proper motor cortx of conscious patients and challenge them to keep one hand from moving when current was applied. The patient would seize his hand with the other hand and struggle to hold it still. Thus one hand under the control of the eletrical current and the other hand under the control of the patient's mind fought against each other.
There is positive evidence that consciousness and the self are not merely a physical process of the brain. We have experimental data where people's brains are electrically stimulatd in order to cause them to move their arms or legs, turn their heads or eyes, talk or swallow. And invariably the patient (each one) would respond by saying something like, "I didn't do that. You did."
In other words, the patient clearly thinks of himself as having an existence separate from his body. In fact, no matter how far Penfield probed the cerebral cortex, there was no place that he could find where an eletrical stimulation of the brain would cause a patient to "believe" or "decide".
There's been a lot of subsequent research beyond Penfield's research too.
For example, when Roger Sperry and his team studied the differences between the brain's right and left hemisphere, they too discovered that the mind has a causal power independent of the brain's activities. The work of Roger Sperry (and John Eccles) has shown us that the movements of consciousness trigger the patterns of neural events.
Another study showed a delay between the time an eletric shock was applied to the skin, its reaching the cerebral cortx, and the self conscious perception of it by the person. This too suggests that "the self" is more than just a machine that simply "reacts" to stimuli as it receives them.
Think about dreaming itself.
How exactly do researchers know that there are a certain eye movements when people are dreaming?
They had to wake them up and ask them. Researchers could watch the eyes move and read a printout of what was physically happening in the brain. They could correlate certain brain states with eye movements, but they they didn't know what was going on in the mind.
Researchers can certainly know about the brain by studying it, but they can't know about the mind without asking the person to reveal it. It seems to me as though this is because "conscious states" have the feature of being inner and private whereas "brain states" don't.
The details of the neurophysiology of the brain can easilly be viewed as merely footprints (in a physical medium) of non-physical, non-genetic supersensible realities connected to the activity of human consciousness. In fact, it seems as though the evidence currently points towards the view that consciousness exists independently of the brain.
As one researcher exploring the possibility of life after death explained it, the brain might serve as a mechanism to manifest the mind - much in the same way a television set manifests pictures and sounds from waves in the air. If an injury to the brain causes a person to lose some aspects of his mind or personanilty, this doesn't necessarilly prove that the brain was the source of the mind. All it shows is that the apparatus is damaged.
Consequently, as recent research into autistic behavior has noted, their consciousness is quite intact all along. In fact, they're often quite aware of what's going on. It's the neurological wiring that messing up their physical actions -- not their consciousness messing up their physical actions.
Observe:
Mind Tree Poems
How Does the Autistic Brain Work?
Incidently, the research of Ramachandran is rather interesting. I'll read more of it when I have a chance. From such observations, some have drawn the inference that the left temporal lobe is either (a) the seat of a God-given human faculty for experiencing the divine or (b) the seat of religious delusions.
However, I will note that Ramachandran is also careful to note that patients may in fact be experiencing God ” so who can say? Either way -- the brain still appears to be somewhat separate from consciousness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 12:38 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by nwr, posted 01-08-2006 10:39 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 231 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 11:29 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 216 of 300 (277066)
01-08-2006 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by crashfrog
01-08-2006 12:51 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
How old are you crashfrog?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:51 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:48 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 217 of 300 (277067)
01-08-2006 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by pink sasquatch
01-08-2006 1:02 AM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
pink sasquatch writes:
In fact, I have no interest at all in continuing to discuss this hypothetical situation.
Fine. I'll leave this question here in case you ever change your mind.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
...if indeed, based on the reported hypothetical situation above, you do find a very odd bone growth which has a clear break in the bone showing age on one side (the side which is claimed to have existed already), and no apparent age on the other side (the side which is claimed to have miraculously regrown), what would you conclude?
pink sasquatch writes:
I think it was just in 2004(?) that a review was done of the intercessory prayer studies, and several of them were shown to used fabricated / unethically manipulated data to demonstrate the "power of prayer."
Link please?
pink sasquatch writes:
However, it has been accepted that patient condition improves when the patient knows they are being prayed for.
Cool.
Have a good one.
Think I'll go get another beer.
(dang, it's like 3:32 -- where'd al the beer go -- where is everybody?)
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-08-2006 03:28 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-08-2006 1:02 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 218 of 300 (277068)
01-08-2006 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by crashfrog
01-08-2006 12:46 AM


Re: Can anyone define a miracle for me? Anyone?
crashfrog writes:
What makes you think you get to ask one question and not the other? I mean, that seems to be a fairly reasonable question to ask about souls - where the fuck do they come from? How does a gamete know when to generate a soul? Or do all gametes have mini-souls? Where in the cell is this soul stored?
Here's a better question: Who cares?
I was responding to sidelined's question:
sidelined writes:
These wave like properties are also detectable. Are you aware of any studies that have detected such?
I answered his question as best as I could. It doesn't have anything to do with sex.
If you want to find out how sex produces souls, maybe you should go watch a porn movie and take notes. Or, better yet, spend time with your S.O. and find out for yourself.
You do have an S.O., correct?
crashfrog writes:
You and I both know that, no matter how our scientific knowledge expands, you and your fellow believers will make sure that souls and Gods and all the rest of it are handily defined in such a way that the lack of evidence for them is made to appear consistent with their existence, anyway. So what's the point?
No.
I've just given you a definite theory. Once quantum gravity is more clearly defined and understood, and virtual particles can be measured with more accuracy, I suspect that there will be found a lack of these 'virtual particels' in areas where human souls occupy time-space. Actually, I'll go one step further and predict that these virtual particles will be found in both solid objects and open spaces, but areas where human souls are theorized to exist will be found to have significantly less 'virtual particles'. It may even be the case that animals and other life-forms that are considered "alive" will also be found to have more 'virtual particles' occupying thier space than human beings do -- because humans have souls (or, at least more soul than animals do).
I admit that this might be difficult to pin-point. But there's no hiding here. I've laid out a theory which is predictable and can eventually be measured once our standards of measurement are accurate enough to do so.
I also admit I could be wrong. But I'm not making up handily defined ideas in such a way that the lack of evidence for them is made to appear consistent with their existence.
I don't see it anyway.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-08-2006 03:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:46 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 1:00 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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