Honour Amongst Christians

I think you described it perfectly.Yes, you certainly can try. And that's exactly what we should do. I think that's a good point. One that's full of a loving God showing that He cares. As long as this point has nothing to do with salvation I have to be honest. I've never really understood that inclusive/exclusive stuff. I can't seem to wrap my head around it. And I don't know enough about christianity to say if you're terrible at it or not. But from what I can tell, you're doing just fine as a person.

I agree. Although I would change your last sentence to say "Everything you do is your choice." But that's just me being nit-picky. So again, by "apply" we don't really mean "apply". There is no positive action of requesting involved. Strange terminology in this theology, but I may be starting to understand what's going on. Well, thank-you. I think it's only fair to point out that this is what people mean when they say "I'm trying to be a good and righteous person". They mean they understand they're not good, or righteous, they understand they're undeserving of any rewards (especially one as huge as eternal salvation).If this is what God is hoping we're capable of, He is indeed a noble and honourable God.

Don't worry about it Like I said, I was being nit-picky. I knew what you likely meant, I just wanted to make sure. Anyone who says they're trying to be righteous and also says this is being a hypocrite. Righteous people do not demand that anyone accepts them. But it doesn't really matter, it's not for us to decide, God will know. I feel like we're not on the same page. But maybe we are. I just don't want to accidentally slip something past that you don't think is in there. I know I've stated I'm assuming God exists and that He is all-powerful earlier in the thread. But at this point it's really hard to show you a "truely how I feel" stance and still assume those points when I don't truely feel that way. Let's take another look at what I said: Notice I didn't even use the word "God" in there. I'm only talking about salvation. To make it clearer, I'll reword it:I do not want to buy salvation from anyone who can sell it, I know I can't afford it.
I do not want to earn salvation from anyone who can grant it, I know I'm not worthy of it.
I would certainly accept salvation from anyone who has the ability to grant it to me in the form of a free gift.This is how I feel. If God is the being who can grant this gift, then I'm certainly talking about God. But as far as my statement goes, it stands without formally acknowledging God.I don't see how forcing someone to believe it's God and only God who's capable of this is an honourable thing.That is to say, this God would have given me my gifts of reasoning. My reasonging tells me this God doesn't even exist. God cannot expect me to be dishonest to the gifts He bestowed upon me. Therefore, in order for me to honour the gifts God has given me, I cannot believe in Him. It would be dishonourable for me to lie to myself and the reasoning skills given to me by God. Am I doomed to not get salvation because I'm honouring the gifts given to me by God?I'm not saying that God is being dishonourable (if He's giving the gift, He can use whatever restrictions He'd like). I'm more focused on me being dishonourable. How can I lie to myself in order to gain something? That doesn't sound honourable at all.

I really can't make any sense of most of your post to me. If you can rephrase in another way, that might help.But maybe it doesn't matter, because I do understand what you're saying here: Especially the last sentence:

quote:

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You might say that "everyone will be saved except those who will it not"

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I don't have any problem with this stance at all. I don't know of anyone who would "will it not". And I certainly don't. I just don't explicitly request for salavation, but I have nothing against it, and I'd certainly receive it if the gift was given freely.I don't think anyone would "will it not", really.

Asking for forgiveness implies we've wronged God somehow. If I've really wronged God, I'd have no problems being convinced that I should ask Him for forgiveness. I'd hope He'd be okay and would want to ask for His forgiveness, it would be the right thing to do. I don't see any dishonour in this. Maybe some dishonour on God's part in trying to convince us that we need to ask Him, but I'm not really worried about God's honour, I'm sure He can take care of Himself.The only problem is whether or not we've really wronged God somehow. If we have, then it's certainly honourable to ask for forgiveness. If not, then it's completely dishonourable for God to attempt to convince us otherwise.If we take for granted that "any wrong against another person is the same as wronging God", then I've certainly wronged God.Of course, again, this has nothing to do with believing God exists or not. If we become aware that we've wronged God, then we certainly should try to do better for Him (ask for forgiveness). If that's the only "restriction" than it's certainly an honour to talk with God. Ummm... no I don't "will it not" I really don't. Maybe I did when I was born, I can't recall. But I certainly don't now. And God will have an easy time convincing my will of any truth, no convincing needed, really, my will's already there. It is honourable that God doesn't depend on our believing in Him, and only cares on our acceptance of what is true given the information we have. That sounds like a very honest, caring, loving, and honourable God.

Easily enough for God, he doesn't even have to convince me. Whenever I'm made aware of having wronged God, I'll certainly wave the white flag without any outside pressures. It's just the honourable thing to do. Not a problem, as long as I'm honest with myself I don't forsee any problems. Whenever it's indicated to me in any way that I've wronging God, I'll present Him with my deepest apologies, as I try to do with any other being (mostly people).

I'm not sure if they do topple. If God is concerned with us being honest with ourselves, those first two items don't seem so important. Why would God not want me to be honest with the very gifts he bestowed upon me? Not really. I'm not looking to soothe my mind, I'm really just looking for conversation and debate (to selfishly help me determine the finer points of my current position) and to give others something to read My current position isn't "I'm an atheist". My current position is "I'm going to be honest with myself and the reasoning skills I possess". This leads me to questioning God's existance. And I certainly don't want to convince myself I'm going to be OK if I'm sincere and do good. I can tell from this life alone that there's only a lot of criticism for being so.I just think being honest and true to oneself is the right thing to do. If it's not, them I'm kinda screwed, and that's where this thread's topic comes from. Because, if I'm not honest with myself, who's unverifiable stories am I supposed to follow? I don't know where to go from there, it opens the door into an impossible to navigate forest. But if I follow honesty, then my path is set. If I follow honesty, and get to God and He says "You were supposed to believe in me". I'll say "oh, sorry, I wasn't smart enough to figure that out". And then I'll go to Hell. I'm not expecting honesty to be good enough for God, I just don't see any other verifiable option.I don't want to mischaracterize the other Christians who have participated earlier in this thread either. Many of them have agreed that honesty is the path God expects us to follow. Personally, I hope they're right. But I'm not attempting to make myself feel better, I'm accostomed to disapointment. I'm just looking for any better options than what I'm currently doing. So far, I havn't been presented with a more likley path to honouring our creator (if there is a creator to honour) than observing the reality He created, and using the reasoning skills He gave me to come to conclusions about His reality. Yes, as discussed. Me too.

No I didn't. However, I am already waving, I've been waving for many years now. But that's not between you and I, that's between God and I, if He exists, anyway. True. I did say that. What makes you think He hasn't already convinced me? Maybe He no longer needs to convince me because He already has done so. You said yourself in Message 135: So, since I already agree with what God wants to convince me of... that I need to ask for forgiveness from those I've wronged, including (most of all) Him. Therefore, either I've already been convinced, or as soon as He attempts to convince me, I'll agree. And it is only God who can tell what is in my heart, not you. So you saying I've lied to God is again, a foolish and unverifiable action by a man making manly assumptions. Again, I'll leave that judgement to God. Exactly. And to this, it will be easily enough for God to convince me, since I already agree. And the judgement is His, not yours. Stop your unverifiable assumptions and let me deal with God the way God wants to be dealt with, in a personal and honest manner.Or do you disagree? Do you really think God doesn't want to deal with people personally and honestly? Let's take this one step at a time:-I already agree I'm an out and out sinner.
-I certainly can be honest with myself, God granted me the skills to do so. Are you saying God did not grant me the reasoning skills I possess? Are you saying God doesn't want me to use the skills he gave me to the best of my ability?
-I don't attempt to contribute in any positive way for my own salvation. That was the whole point of this thread, I find the act of positive-contribution toward getting salvation to be dishonourable.
-I agree that salvation is the work of God, I'm trying to get you to understand such. You seem to think your personal desires have some sort of input on my salvation. They do not. My salvation depends on an honest relationship between me and God. The judgement is His alone, not yours. True, doing nothing isn't a good thing. That's why I'm doing something, I'm being honest. If God doesn't want honesty, then I agree that I'm toast. Because I don't know where to turn if I can't be honest with myself, there are too many unverifiable options, too many words of man to distinguish from. All I can do is follow the path of honesty to where it leads. At least this way, I'm honouring God's creation of this reality.

Hey ICANT, This is a very big problem, I agree, and takes a few very difficult-to-follow-through-with points to move forward:1. If I am made aware of any false-premises I hold, I will change them.
This is easier to say than to do in the extreme. But the only way, again, to keep track of this is to be as honest with ourselves as possible.2. Always assume you do not have all the facts, and always be ready for anyone or any experience to add to the facts you already hold.
This too is very difficult. And again, it relys on being honest with yourself in order to stay focused.Therefore it comes down to... honesty may not lead me in the correct direction, but it's my best bet. Because not using honesty only opens us up to anything anyone says, and that comes with even worse problems attached.I fully admit I may be wrong, and I may not have all the facts. But what more can I do than be honest with what I have and make honest conclusion from that? That's not rhetorical, by the way, I really mean to ask. If you have another method of which I can more easily understand the truth of things, I'd really like to hear it. No. I was raised a Roman Catholic. I was baptized, had first communion, went through confirmation. Was in the Catholic school system untill the end of highschool. I've read much of the Bible, and understand a lot of the Catholic terminology and theology. But I've never read the Bible from start to finish.

Let me try to rephrase it. "I certainly don't want to convince myself I'm going to be OK if I'm sincere and do good" means that I accept the possibility that being sincere and doing good may not be a priority to God. Or if there is no afterlife it will obviously be moot in the sense of salvation, anyway. Therefore, I can't convince myself I'm going to be OK (in a receiving salvation-sense) just because I'm sincere and doing good. For all I know, God may be vindictive or maybe even just unpredictable. Since I don't know what God's like, I don't want to do anything betting on Him being a certain way. That doesn't seem right. Also, if I did convince myself I'd be OK (salvation-OK, again) for being sincere and doing good, I fall into the very trap I'm afraid of... expecting the gift of salvation. That is something I feel is very dishonourable.That's still a bit of a jumbled mess of thoughts... I hope it's a bit clearer on what I meant. I don't understand how I could be mad at something I had no control over in the first place. I admit that I wouldn't find it fair in anyway, but that wouldn't make me mad. I decided on my own that being honest with myself and the skills I have is my best option. If that is not so, I am prepared to accept whatever fate becomes me. I do not see how I can reasonably do anything else. Therefore, if the universe is ruled by an unreasonable being, I didn't have a chance in the first place. I wouldn't be mad, though. Mad is reserved for those things I know I could have done better. If I'm wrong with this decision, I still know I couldn't have done any better. Logic? Logic just is. Our logic is just as valid as anyone elses. I will agree that His ability to do what he pleases trumps ours though. That kinda comes with being infinite and all To me, honesty = the best I can offer. That's it. I offer my honesty (my best) to friends, family, God, anyone and everyone. That's all I got. If that's not good enough, then I was screwed before I even began. If wrong it's a bummer, for sure, but nothing to get angry about, what more could I have done? I think the Bible is... outdated. For whatever purpose or reason, I have the ability to question things and to verify things. In order to do my best, I need to use these abilities to figure out whatever I can about the truth of this reality. Parts of the Bible are very helpful in contrasting what I think is good now and what people thought was good 2000 years ago. That's an important piece of knowledge that should not be taken lightly. And we would be foolish indeed not to learn from it. What we can't forget is that we've also had an extra 2000 years to learn even more. To disregard this fact would be very dishonourable to whoever or whatever gave me the abilities of questioning and verifying. In order to be honest with myself, I cannot refuse the extra information these last 2000 years provide to us that those living 2000 years ago did not have. In order to be honest with myself I need to look at all information available so that I can make the best informed decision I'm capable of. Otherwise, I wouldn't be giving my best efforts.

Here's the dilemma the way I see it: There may or may not be a creator of this reality. We have a Bible. The Bible may or may not from God. The Bible, even if from God originally, may be corrupted by man today, in any of it's existing copies. The world cannot be corrupted by man. If there was a God, He created the world and everything we can learn from it.So there's two ways we can gain knowledge from God:1. The Bible - which you and I agree may possible be corrupted by man.
2. The world - directly from God, and is definitely not corrupted by man.Therefore, to me, anything that is directly from God (the world) trumps anything that could have been corrupted by man. I agree. God left us the entire world, uncorruptable by man, for us to search out his preserved truth. The Bible is helpful, yes, but is outdated and very likely non-original. The world is original, it is present-day material, and it's uncorruptable. I can find everything I've said to you in this world, with evidence. My first-hand, direct evidence from God trumps your past-along, used by men with agendas (TV evangelists), extremely beyond second-hand, possibly corrupted Bibles, any and all versions. No, not at all. I don't bother myself with whether or not God is honourable, just as I don't bother myself with whether or not any other person on this planet is honourable. I bother myself with whether or not I am honourable, that's all. I can't change God, or other people (for the most part). I can change me, so I concern myself with me. Other people are capable of taking care of themselves.All I want is for myself to live an honourable life. To search for truth honourably, I need to be honest and look at all the information available. Especially the information that is first-hand and directly from God (if He exists), the world itself. Absolutely true. We can't fault God because His first-hand knowledge is staring us right in the face. The world around us, the reality we live in. It has nothing to do with our forefathers messing anything up because it's impossible for them to corrupt reality. We all have the assumption that this reality exists, and that we can interpret it in some meaningful way.That is my only assumption.You have another assumption, that the information you're gathering from the Bible is also correct. The truth is available, direct from reality.

I thought you said it's possible that I wouldn't be aware that God's convinced me already, no? How does being a Christian have anything to do with it, if it's possible I may not even be aware? Fair enough, I'll leave it to God to judge. Does that seem okay? Of course. I'll leave the depth of my conviction for God to judge. Okay. How does this alter that the only thing I can do is be honest with myself to the best of my abilities?I may be foolish, and skewed, and horribly off centre, but what else can I do if it's exactly what my God-given abilities are telling me is the right thing? Shouldn't I be honest and trust what God has given me? I'm sure it's possible to boast of a lot of things. How does this change that I should be honest with myself and God? Do you think I should lie to God? Maybe try to cheat or hide things from God? Is that your suggestion? I really think being honest is the best path. You don't think the judgement is up to God? The judgement is yours? That doesn't seem right to me. And again, as a self-proclaimed disciple of Jesus Christ... your suggestion is that I should not be honest with God. What dishonest tactic do you suggest? Should I steal from God? How about bargaining, should I attempt to strike a deal with God? What is your suggestion, if I should not be honest? I think you're confused. I'm not being honest with God in order to get salvation. I'm just being honest with God. That's it. Period after that sentence. All I'm doing is being honest with God instead of lying or hiding things from Him. On a completely separate note, salvation is God's gift to grant, and He can do so by His judgement. Not yours. Salvation is God's judgement. But I'm not relying on myself. All I'm doing is not lying and not tricking and not hiding from God. What's left is being honest. It's easier to say "being honest" than to say "not lying, not tricking, not hiding, not stealing, not manipulating..." And I'm certainly not doing any of that for salvation. The whole point of this thread was that I found it dishonourable to ask for (or attempt to earn) salvation.Are you seriously suggesting that I should not be honest with God? How do you propose I attempt to lie or manipulate an all-knowing God? It doesn't even make sense to me. I think you need to re-think your position if you seriously want people to be dishonest with God.

Hello ICANT, I really don't want to talk about how the universe was created or the capabilities of our brains. As far as I can see, they are irrelevant to the discussion we're having.We're talking about being honest with ourselves and the information available to us.It doesn't matter how the universe was created, we're here now and we can either be honest with the information available, or we can turn a blind eye.It doesn't matter how amazing our brains are, we have the ability to search for truth and to use reasoning skills. We can be honest in our usage of these abilities or we can turn a blind eye. Good. I have nothing against this position. In fact, it's one I sometimes hold myself as I also like that picture. I'm not sure of how likely the possibility is, but that's for me to deal with my own honesty.So, lets assume it's true for right now. I know I'm flip-flopping a lot between this assumption, but let's see where this goes.God created the magnificent universe and He stretched it out.
God created the wonderously made human.I'm going to study the magnificent universe He directly created. I'm going to search the direct evidence He presents us with, evidence that cannot be corrupted.I agree that if you take someone's word that "our brain just happened by accident", then that is a human-corruption. But the beauty of God's creation is that you don't have to take their word. The brain is right there if you want to study it, or look at it, or learn about it. You don't have to take anyone's word for it.God's creation is all around us, and it's uncorruptable by man. Sure, men can try to talk corrupt things about it, but we have to look out for that everywhere. I'm sure you're aware of many corrupt men talking horrible things about the Bible even. That doesn't change the fact that we can read the Bible for ourselves, and it doesn't change the fact that we can search reality for truth ourselves.The only difference is that the printed words of the Bible may also be corrupted already. The reality we live in is uncorruptible.I don't see how we can honestly search for the truth of God, yet not take His direct evidence of reality over the second-hand, possibly corrupt evidence of the Bible.

I don't understand how this position contradicts anything I've said. It's things like there being no world-wide flood, or how unlikely it is that there actually was any exodus event. Things like throughout Leviticus and Deuteronomy that tell us how to treat offenders in horrible ways. We can look to reality and understand how these things are most likely not true. The Bible may say it's right to stone someone to death for whatever... but reality says that stoning someone to death (for anything) is cruel at best, and an extreme abuse of force at worst.I'm not saying I have any answers. I'm just saying that if you're searching for answers, don't forget about the information God's given you first hand... the very world we live in. Of course I'll try, but we can all be wrong and mistaken, even just being honest. That's why it's nice that we can all always look at reality, the direct evidence. Which, if He exists, would be directly from God.

Against? I don't have anything against your Bible, or any Bible. I like the Bible, it has a lot of good lessons written out. I'll likely make my (future) kids read it with me. I just think it's been written by people, and is therefore prone to error. Where reality was not written by people, and possibly written by God. Therefore, if reality has any sort of conflict with the Bible, then reality is right and the Bible is wrong. This doesn't make the Bible bad or silly or useless, it just means the Bible isn't fully descriptive of reality. Which, on giving that a second thought, is rather obvious.I just think it's best to be honest with what we find. If the Bible says something like 'milk only comes from goats' and I clearly see that milk also comes from cows, I'm going to believe reality.I'm not saying that quote's actually in the Bible I just want to point out that I think reality trumps the Bible, as long as we're being honest with ourselves. And since both are from God, and only one has the possible chance of being corrupted by men... I don't even see how reality trumping the Bible goes against basic beief in God as our creator.