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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 308 (450244)
01-21-2008 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
01-18-2008 1:22 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Stile writes:

All I'm saying is that God can grant salvation. And I've heard that some people believe God gives the gift of salvation to those who ask for it. Yet will not give it to anyone who does not ask for it.

To me, a gift is honourable if you don't ask for it and someone still gives it to you. Otherwise (if you asked for it) you certainly may still deserve it, and it can still be good, but it's not honourable any longer.

Say God somehow set about convincing a person that they are an unforgiven sinner in his sight and that the fate of unforgiven sinners is surely Hell. Fully convinced of their destination the person cries out to God for mercy.

Is the "ask" coming from the free will of the person themselves? Or has it been pressed out of them by Gods action upon them? His convincing them..

If the latter and the person asks for forgiveness (as Christian theology indicates they must) is this honourable on the part of God and man.

Is it not a gift given completely freely - the "act of asking" also being part of Gods gift?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 1:22 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 2:03 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 308 (450248)
01-21-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
01-21-2008 12:13 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
Charged with trying by whom?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:21 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 51 of 308 (450255)
01-21-2008 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
01-21-2008 12:21 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
From whence that notion?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:32 PM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 308 (450476)
01-22-2008 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Stile
01-21-2008 2:03 PM


Re: Can't ask for honour
iano writes:

Is the "ask" coming from the free will of the person themselves? Or has it been pressed out of them by Gods action upon them?

Stile writes:

I would say it's still free will. This person may be fully convinced of their destination and still choose to accept it. If they believe they are that rotten, it's possible they may believe they deserve the fate.

I would have thought any definition of free will would include the notion that a person is faced with some kind of balanced choice. And that they could choose either way. A person trapped in a blazing room and who jumps out of the window of the 43rd floor cannot be said to be making a free willed choice to jump. Have you ever stood close to an approaching fire? The fire presses you back - you have no choice to stand your ground. You must jump out the window.

Let's suppose the conviction of God is equivilent to a fire. And that because of it you will ask for forgiveness (jump). No choice about it at that point.

quote:
No, the gift is not given completely freely if one has to ask for it. Regardless if that asking is stressed on them by God or not. The only way a gift is given freely (and in an honourable way) is if it didn't have to be asked for

Does the above change your view? Let's say a person wants to give a gift to a child - but the childs hands hang down by their side. The gift cannot be received. The giver takes the childs hands, lifts them up from their side and places the gift in them. Are you saying that this action on the part of the giver destroys the gift giving? Hands lifted by the giver, asking pressed out of you by the giver. It's the same thing.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 2:03 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 10:41 AM iano has not yet responded
 Message 82 by LinearAq, posted 01-22-2008 11:54 AM iano has responded
 Message 89 by Stile, posted 01-22-2008 1:12 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 131 of 308 (450824)
01-24-2008 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by LinearAq
01-22-2008 11:54 AM


Re: Belief changes the equation
Let's suppose the conviction of God is equivilent to a fire. And that because of it you will ask for forgiveness (jump). No choice about it at that point.

Do you believe coercion to be dishonorable?

Yes. But you shouldn't confuse a person at the point of no return with the person who is not there yet. The person who is convinced (who has no choice but to jump) is not the same as a person who is not convinced (and can chose to avoid being convinced).

A person who choses to evade conviction will never jump out any windows.

Do you believe that God will throw into Hell those who don't accept His Son as savior? Once you believe in this particular God and that He will do what He says, you are now being coerced into accepting His Son.

The above might require that you modify your view. I could have avoided being exposed to that which resulted in my being convinced of my position before God. All I had to do was continue to suppress the truth that God revealed to me (as he reveals to everyone). Sure, everyone suppresses it to a greater or lesser degree - the question is, will a person suppress it until it is too late. Until the point where God says (paraphrased) "Enough is enough - thy will be done".

I guess coercion is an honorable tactic according to you.

Coercion you were free to escape from is no coercion at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by LinearAq, posted 01-22-2008 11:54 AM LinearAq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by LinearAq, posted 01-24-2008 12:52 PM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 132 of 308 (450830)
01-24-2008 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Stile
01-22-2008 1:12 PM


Re: Can't ask for honour
The second part, not the first part. I have free will, and I'm faced with plenty of unbalanced choices everyday. None of those choices remove my free will. Sometimes I choose the one that's apparently "less attractive", just because I can.

Okay. Lets agree on a free willed choice being faced with options and that you can pick from those options.

Sure they're making a free willed choice to jump. Just because you can't stand close to an approaching fire doesn't mean nobody can. And those with something important enough to lose in that fire certainly do choose to run straight into it. Lots of them die in the fire rather than jumping out the window. How is that not free choice? But this doesn't really matter.

I wasn't trying to stretch the picture to cover all possible events. Generally speaking, a raging fire will compel people to jump out 43rd storey building. That's compelling enough to dispel with notions of free choice for our purposes. The picture was only meant to illustrate "a person asking God because they are pushed by God to do so" rather than "a person asking because they have a free willed choice". How this works further is explained below a little.

Why don't we just suppose what you want to say. "God removes our free will". Is that better? 'Cause you havn't yet come up with a scenario that actually removes free choice. I certainly can assume that God removes our choice, if you want me to.

The post to Linear AQ above deals with this. Suffice to say the scenario at the point of asking is one of complete and utter conviction (however you want to picture it). And that if completely convinced you are not faced with a free-willed option anymore - you will ask.

But hang on! Your being convinced WILL ensure you ask for forgiveness. And asking for forgiveness (provided the conviction is due to Gods action on you) WILL ensure your justification before God. And your being considered justified before God WILL result in your salvation! It should be clear then that receipt of this gift occurs at the point of conviction - given that subsequent events follow assuredly and automatically as a consequence of you being convinced. The area to look at then is not the asking but the conviction. Where does will work in this scenario...?

I have a problem with the thought of God granting salvation only to those who ask.

Hopefully you will see now that "the asking" occurs automatically as a consequence of conviction - which shifts the problem you might have back a little.

Put it this way thus. Have you got a problem with God granting salvation only to those who become convinced by God? For if convinced > ask for forgiveness > justified > saved. Before answering, consider that a person can avoid being brought to the point of conviction by exercising their will. The question becomes this one: Have you a problem with God granting salvation only to those how don't exercise their will to the point of final rejecting his attempt to convince them?

God attempts to convince. But he permits a persons will to be exercised so as to reject his attempt to convince. Is this not honourable on the part of God?

And I certainly do have free-will to ask for it or not. And my hands work just fine. I'm really confused about what you're trying to talk about here...

We have seen the auto-consequence of conviction. What I am saying is that God attempts to lift your hands to receive his gift. You are free to resist his attempt to lift your hands. You can hold your hands behind your back. You can wrest them free of his many attempts to lift them. You do this. If you don't resist finally, he will manage to raise your hands and will drop this gift into them. The gift is called conviction.

And the only thing preventing you receiving it is your will exercised against it - you don't have to exercise your will for it, indeed you cannot. You might say that "everyone will be saved except those who will it not"

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Stile, posted 01-22-2008 1:12 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 9:36 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 135 of 308 (450840)
01-24-2008 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Stile
01-24-2008 9:36 AM


Re: I don't get it
Stile writes:

I really can't make any sense of most of your post to me. If you can rephrase in another way, that might help.

Okay. Mostly what I was dealing with was your hanging up on you "having to ask for a gift". It appeared to be an obstacle for you. I was simply pointing out that you're objecting in the wrong place. What happens is that God has to compel you to ask for forgiveness. And the way he does this is by convincing you that you need it. The gift transaction occurs at the point of his convincing you. You don't have to ask him to convince you - he attempts to convince everyone completely off his own bat. Unasked.

My question is, is there anything dishonourable about this scenario for anyone concerned?

You might say that "everyone will be saved except those who will it not"

I don't have any problem with this stance at all. I don't know of anyone who would "will it not". And I certainly don't. I just don't explicitly request for salavation, but I have nothing against it, and I'd certainly receive it if the gift was given freely.

I don't think anyone would "will it not", really.

You most certainly do will it not. Everyone born is born willing it not. It's a question of whether the will will insist on having it's way despite God's attempt to convince it otherwise. Unto the point where God takes your answer as final.

I think that it is honourable that the creator of the universe is prepared to take "No" for an answer.

It should be noted that you need not have any conscious inkling that you are dealing with God or that he is dealing with you in order for him to pose the opportunity for heaven or hell.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 9:36 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 10:38 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 138 of 308 (450863)
01-24-2008 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Stile
01-24-2008 10:38 AM


Re: Maybe a bit clearer
Asking for forgiveness implies we've wronged God somehow. If I've really wronged God, I'd have no problems being convinced that I should ask Him for forgiveness. I'd hope He'd be okay and would want to ask for His forgiveness, it would be the right thing to do. I don't see any dishonour in this.

It's all logical enough isn't it. The devil is literally in the detail though. Part of our problem is that we are born sinners by nature. Sin is as natural as the weather to us and we see little problem in it (except when someone sins against us of course).

quote:
Maybe some dishonour on God's part in trying to convince us that we need to ask Him, but I'm not really worried about God's honour, I'm sure He can take care of Himself.

I don't see what is dishonouring about it. Convincing you vindicates his being merciful. Failure to convince you vindicates his being just and wrathful against rebels in his realm.

You belong to God. He created you and has every right to set boundaries for your behaviour. Yet his rights concerning you are trampled upon by you. Assuming for the sake of argument that God as described does exist, it is not logical for a rebel to be unconcerned about God's honour.

The only problem is whether or not we've really wronged God somehow. If we have, then it's certainly honourable to ask for forgiveness. If not, then it's completely dishonourable for God to attempt to convince us otherwise.

The "only problem" is quickly resolved. God say's we've wronged him. He's in a position to know.

Forgiveness (the complete version) involves the offended paying whatever is due on behalf of the offender. Like, how it would sound if a friend lost a book you had loaned him and you said "I forgive you, now give me the $20 it cost so I can buy another copy". To forgive means you cough up the $20.

When you ask God to forgive you you ask him to pay the price himself for your offence. Which he will gladly do by laying the wrath due your sin upon Jesus instead of you.

The honourable thing for a defeated rebel to do is to surrender. Or face complete destruction. It is honourable for God to attempt to convince you you are defeated and without any hope of victory.

He can try and convince you to wave the white flag. But he can't force you to.

If we take for granted that "any wrong against another person is the same as wronging God", then I've certainly wronged God.

That's a good start. But there are a myriad of other ways you can wrong God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 10:38 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 1:40 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 144 of 308 (450949)
01-25-2008 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Stile
01-24-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Maybe a bit clearer
Stile writes:

Easily enough for God, he doesn't even have to convince me. Whenever I'm made aware of having wronged God, I'll certainly wave the white flag without any outside pressures. It's just the honourable thing to do.

Start waving. You've just called him a liar. So necessary did he think convincing you was that he sent his Holy Spirit into the world for that very purpose. To convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. You say it's not necessary for him to convince you.

Nor is it of much use that you be intellectually convinced - indeed it can be a hinderance. There are people who believe God exists and believe that they don't keep his law. And they ask for forgiveness for it. But it is not their hearts that have been convinced by God rather it is their intellects that have been convinced by their religion or culture. In his day, Jesus called them white washed tombs full of dead mens bones.

Nope, it is conviction by God that is required. That is the only thing that would bring you truly to your knees. His conviction, on his terms, in his time.

Not a problem, as long as I'm honest with myself I don't forsee any problems. Whenever it's indicated to me in any way that I've wronging God, I'll present Him with my deepest apologies, as I try to do with any other being (mostly people).

The problem is that you are an out and out sinner. And it is not in the remit of sinners to be honest when their independence from God is in anyway threatened. Which is why you don't get to contribute in any positive way to your own salvation. In so far as it relies on you the only thing you can contribute to is your damnation. Salvation is the work of God - not you.

You, my friend, have to do precisely... nothing. And if you do nothing he'll push you out the window of the 43rd floor so that you can fall to your death.

You have to die in order to be born again. And it might hurt a bit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 1:40 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 10:46 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 168 of 308 (451627)
01-28-2008 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Stile
01-25-2008 10:46 AM


Re: I will be honest with God, are you suggesting otherwise?
iano writes:

So necessary did he think convincing you was that he sent his Holy Spirit into the world for that very purpose. To convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. You say it's not necessary for him to convince you.

stile writes:

True. I did say that. What makes you think He hasn't already convinced me?

Your not a Christian?

So, since I already agree with what God wants to convince me of... that I need to ask for forgiveness from those I've wronged, including (most of all) Him. Therefore, either I've already been convinced, or as soon as He attempts to convince me, I'll agree.

I'm not sure that that asking for forgiveness is the primary thing that God needs to convince you of. Central to things seems to be total acknowledgement that you can no longer continue to operate independently of God. That you must give up your place on the throne of your life. In that would be a realisation that you require forgiveness for having insisted upon your way for so long. Forgiveness as an element of the whole show of salvation.

Besides, that a person has been convinced of their need for anothers forgiveness doesn't mean the conviction is a salvation-related one, to my mind. There is a call of conscience issued to all, afterall. That is to say, that a person is convicted by the general call of conscience doesn't mean tbe conviction is a salvation-related .

And to this, it will be easy enough for God to convince me, since I already agree. And the judgement is His, not yours. Stop your unverifiable assumptions and let me deal with God the way God wants to be dealt with, in a personal and honest manner.

Or do you disagree? Do you really think God doesn't want to deal with people personally and honestly?

Lots of people agree that starvation in Africa is a terrible thing. They are convinced. But not to the point of putting their hands deep into their pockets. You say that you are convinced. And I believe you when you say you are. But how deep is it possible for conviction to plunge to? Could I suggest that you couldn't know until you get there?

As to personally and honestly dealing with God. If the Bibles general description of fallen man is that he has a deceitful heart and is enslaved to sin (as a junkie is enslaved to heroin) how do you suppose yourself, as a fallen man, to deal honestly with God?

-I already agree I'm an out and out sinner.

Okay. Not that that in itself counts for a whole lot.

-I certainly can be honest with myself, God granted me the skills to do so. Are you saying God did not grant me the reasoning skills I possess? Are you saying God doesn't want me to use the skills he gave me to the best of my ability?

A gospel of grace is required precisely because man has become foolish in his reasoning. He thinking is skewed. He cannot reason correctly about the things of God. He is blind to the things of God in fact. Which is why his salvation doesn't rely on him at all.

-I don't attempt to contribute in any positive way for my own salvation. That was the whole point of this thread, I find the act of positive-contribution toward getting salvation to be dishonourable.

You were going to rely on your dealing honestly with God weren't you?. If such a thing could contribute could you not boast of that? "I am saved partily due to my honest dealing with God". Boasting of anything at all is clearly excluded in the gospel.

-I agree that salvation is the work of God, I'm trying to get you to understand such. You seem to think your personal desires have some sort of input on my salvation. They do not. My salvation depends on an honest relationship between me and God. The judgement is His alone, not yours.

I beg to differ. Jesus commissioned his disciples (of which I am one) to tell others of the good news. This is not to say I contribute to your salvation in any way. I'm just a messenger. And part of the messaging involves correcting error where it is plain. You have repeated your salvation partly dependant upon you (your honesty) in the same paragraph where you say salvation is of God

You, my friend, have to do precisely... nothing. And if you do nothing he'll push you out the window of the 43rd floor so that you can fall to your death.

True, doing nothing isn't a good thing. That's why I'm doing something, I'm being honest.

Do read it again. I said that you had to do precisely nothing. That it is good that you do precisely nothing. You having to do something is called a works-based salvation. Even if you think the thing done is a noble thing.

If God doesn't want honesty, then I agree that I'm toast. Because I don't know where to turn if I can't be honest with myself, there are too many unverifiable options, too many words of man to distinguish from. All I can do is follow the path of honesty to where it leads. At least this way, I'm honouring God's creation of this reality.

There you go again. Relying on yourself. :) Relying on your own ability to discern truth from lie. I can only speak from experience Stile. And what I found was that God was more than capable of ensuring I came to him.

All I needed to do was nothing - which wasn't all that hard in my case. As far as I was consciously concerned, I wasn't looking for God. So was unlikely to be "doing things" to help things along

:)

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 10:46 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 10:22 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 183 of 308 (451829)
01-28-2008 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Stile
01-28-2008 10:22 AM


Re: Honesty is a bad thing?
Stile writes:

I thought you said it's possible that I wouldn't be aware that God's convinced me already, no? How does being a Christian have anything to do with it, if it's possible I may not even be aware?

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. I'm pretty sure I said that you wouldn't necessarily know it was God-at-work-attempting-to-convict-you. Which is a little different to you-having-been-finally-convinced-without-your-knowing-it.

Final conviction is the tipping point into salvation. One of the (many) things that occur at this point is God making a temple of the person so as to take up residence within them. I'd find it hard to conceive of someone NOT knowing that this has occurred. If it has occurred.

There is a call of conscience issued to all, afterall. I mean, that a person is convicted by the general call of conscience doesn't mean the conviction is a salvation related one.

Fair enough, I'll leave it to God to judge. Does that seem okay?

It does. So long as we understand the conviction you experience about you being a sinner or in need of forgiveness might not be the same as the final conviction that God works towards. It could be part of it. But just not final.

Okay. How does this alter that the only thing I can do is be honest with myself to the best of my abilities? I may be foolish, and skewed, and horribly off centre, but what else can I do if it's exactly what my God-given abilities are telling me is the right thing? Shouldn't I be honest and trust what God has given me?

The Bible is fairly clear on the lot of fallen man, Stile. Such men are "under the sway and rule of the wicked one (satan)". Such men are, in a manner of speaking, sin addicts. These are NOT God-given abilities and certainly NOT abilities conducive to trusting yourself. Once accepting of this biblical slant you can see the dilemmas mounting as to the accuracy of your self-assessment.

What else can you do? The answer for such a one as you and me (as I once was) is clearly and absolutely... nothing. In so far as God manages to push you along you will move along in his direction. That you would perceive yourself as decision maker along the way is neither here nor there. If saved and looking back with 20/20 hindsight you would see that it was God who managed to manoevre you into positions. That it was him using circumstance to steer you through the maze towards him.

I'm sure it's possible to boast of a lot of things. How does this change that I should be honest with myself and God? Do you think I should lie to God? Maybe try to cheat or hide things from God? Is that your suggestion? I really think being honest is the best path.

It is indeed possible to boast of lots of things. Just not of contributing to one's own salvation in any way, shape or form.

As to lying to God? Of course you can. The lie-recipients ability to know you are lying doesn't alter your ability to lie. Just look at young children lying through their beautiful little teeth at you. Does your ability to perceive the lie alter the fact of their lying?

In order to be honest with God you would need some stable, neutral platform from which to strike off. What is that platform - given the fall? Hopeless addiction to sin? Blindness to truth? At emnity with God? This is how the Bible describes fallen man.

You don't think the judgement is up to God? The judgement is yours? That doesn't seem right to me. And again, as a self-proclaimed disciple of Jesus Christ... your suggestion is that I should not be honest with God. What dishonest tactic do you suggest? Should I steal from God? How about bargaining, should I attempt to strike a deal with God? What is your suggestion, if I should not be honest?

I am not judging. I'm commenting from a position. I can't help the fact that I am saved. I can't help the fact that many here are not. All I can do is comment. Not judge.

As pointed out, your ability for honesty is fatally compromised. You might see it as you looking through a particular shade of lens. If true is white all you will see from your perspective is tinted red. Try as you might, you yourself cannot see white. Even on my side of the fence, where seeing white becomes possible, I can only see faintly, through a glass darkly as Paul puts it.

I'm not holier-than-thou. I'm a beggar pointing the starving to where they can find food. That is the so called "great commission" To be pointers.

I think you're confused. I'm not being honest with God in order to get salvation. I'm just being honest with God. That's it. Period after that sentence. All I'm doing is being honest with God instead of lying or hiding things from Him. On a completely separate note, salvation is God's gift to grant, and He can do so by His judgement. Not yours. Salvation is God's judgement.

We've already dealt with the problem of honesty.

Salvation is indeed Gods to give. And he decides whether his criterion for saving a person is met or not. That is not to say that a person like me cannot know what that criterion is or whether a person hasn't met it yet. It's not judgment on my part. Merely observation.

But I'm not relying on myself.

Of course you are. Your posts drip words indictating your contributing. For instance..

All I'm doing is:

- not lying
- not tricking
- not hiding from God.

"All you are doing" is your work, your effort, your willpower, your version of honesty. Such things will result in your not lying at times, not tricking at others, trying not to hide as best you know how - when you might otherwise want to. This all takes effort on your part. Expenditure of effort.

I'm not judging Stile but your very words don't seem to be able to free you from the notion that you must do "something" to contribute to your salvation. Even if it's only trying to be honest.

Romans is the book in which the mechanics of the gospel is laid out. Introducing it, Paul tells us that he is not ashamed of the gospel of God because "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe".

The power of God is what saves men. Not the power of men

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 10:22 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 9:57 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 192 of 308 (452351)
01-30-2008 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Stile
01-29-2008 9:57 AM


Re: You don't seem to understand
stile writes:

This is the only sense that I'm being honest. I'm simply being honest because I have to be something, just like everyone else.

Fair enough, but to finally clarify. Can I take it that your being honest leans more towards being compelled to honesty than towards something you figure is the best way forward and should actively try to be?

The only notion I have that I must do "something" is in the same notion that everyone must always be doing "something".

An interesting point.

If God-at-work-on-you is what compelled you from a former life of dishonesty/disinterest into a position of honesty/interest, then your honesty and interest wouldn't be the result of you doing something. Rather, it would be the result of him doing something and you not doing something to resist that happening (assuming you were permitted the option to resist). In which case you would be where you are now precisely because you did nothing to prevent it happening. Or insufficent to prevent it happening.

Carry forth that notion - up to the point where God delivers you to and beyond the point of salvation. It can be said then, that your salvation was of God. That you did nothing of which you can boast by way of contribution.

Which takes us away from the original issue...

If I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for, and Christianity insists that I ask for God's forgiveness in order to receive salvation...

If is the case that you are compelled by Gods work to ask (at that point in your journey) just as God's work compels you to honesty (at this point in your journey) would you be happy that Christianities insistance doesn't render it dishonourable?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 9:57 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Stile, posted 01-31-2008 8:54 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 195 of 308 (453020)
02-01-2008 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Stile
01-31-2008 8:54 AM


Re: How do we tell?
Stile writes:

I'm not sure. How would I know the difference?

You probably wouldn't until the time when you could look back with 20/20 hindsight. When I used the word "lean" I was trying to avoid notions of dead certainty from your perspective. It might have been an impossible question to answer from your perspective in fact.

Perhaps we can only go so far as settling on your view that your contributing to your salvation in any way is a dishonourable thing and something you would want to avoid. You might even agree that you would want to be steered, by God, into avoiding even unconscious attempts to contribute to your salvation - so dishonourable would you find that.

Even if we didn't say that, and we said it was all my decisions and my choices, I wouldn't be boasting about anything either.

It's not so much a matter of whether you would or not. It's a matter of whether you could or not. Clearly, if you could contribute to your salvation you could decide to boast of the decisions you made which proved contributary.

If is the case that you are compelled by Gods work to ask (at that point in your journey) just as God's work compels you to honesty (at this point in your journey) would you be happy that Christianities insistance doesn't render it dishonourable?

No, I wouldn't be happy. Being compelled to ask for a gift doesn't somehow make getting that gift honourable. "I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for". Regardless of why or how I'm asking, the asking removes any honour. It may certainly still be good, but there's no honour in receiving something you asked for.

As outlined earlier, being compelled to ask [/i]is part of the gift[/i]. Asking is an auto-consequence of final and complete conviction (by God). The gift is received and unwrapped the moment God finally convinces you.

Being brought to that final conviction is that which could have been prevented by you. The road along which your will had opportunity to say a final No! to God. The road along which God's efforts converning you weren't tipping-point compelling.

By the way, what's the name of that painting in your avatar. Lovely lighting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Stile, posted 01-31-2008 8:54 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Stile, posted 02-01-2008 8:37 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 197 of 308 (453082)
02-01-2008 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Stile
02-01-2008 8:37 AM


Re: How do we tell?
But even if I didn't contribute at all to my salvation, I could still boast about it as much as I could if I did contribute. Lots of people boast about plenty of things they really don't have any reasonable stance to boast about. But this is a minor point, and I don't really have a problem with it anyway.

All the worlds relgions (including Roman Catholicism) position you w.r.t. God/gods/Enlightenment/Karma/Whatever-The-Positive-Outcome-On-Offer-Is .... depending on your contribution. They all hold that man must somehow make himself right with God. Which permits man to hold his head up before God. This self-standing before God, this independance...is the thing which got man into trouble in the first place. So it's actually a very serious thing.

In Christianity, God is the one who brings man into rightstanding with God.

Then it is inherent in the gift that it is without honour... simply because you applied for it.

? I repeat. The gift commences on conviction. You didn't ask for that or apply for it.

Are you sure it's a painting? I just picture-googled "stile" and this was the most comforting picture I found. A stile is just some wood near a fence that helps a farmer climb over and not get cow-dung all over themselves.

I suspect it is a painting. Just the way the light is in it. I wonder why would anyone picture-google..... "stile". Perhaps you were inspired to by God


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Stile, posted 02-01-2008 8:37 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Stile, posted 02-01-2008 12:11 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 199 of 308 (453113)
02-01-2008 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Stile
02-01-2008 12:11 PM


Re: How do we tell?
Stile writes:

If you're forced to ask for something, convicted to ask for something, or ask for something of your own volition, it doesn't matter. There's still no honour in it.

What part of "you have received the gift before you've asked for it" do you not understand? :)

I wonder why would anyone picture-google..... "stile". Perhaps you were inspired to by God

Um... I picture-googled "stile" because that's what I chose for my screen-name. I wanted a picture to represent what the name meant. Just as if my name was Taz and I looked for a picture of the Tazmanian Devil cartoon.

I looked it up. It's a photo taken around the village of Chobham in England. Looks a little like it's been digitally filtered - which had me suppose it was a painting. Nice all the same.

Interesting choice given your apparent current position. A stile being indeed a crossover point at the boundary of lands divided by stream, hedgerow or fence. I note too that your picture is taken from the viewpoint of a person emerging from a tunnel of darkness - heading towards the source of light which lies on the other side of the stile.

Perhaps it was my 20/20 hindsight that drew me to your picture. A sense of deja vu.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Stile, posted 02-01-2008 12:11 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Stile, posted 02-01-2008 1:58 PM iano has responded

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