Honour Amongst Christians

Say God somehow set about convincing a person that they are an unforgiven sinner in his sight and that the fate of unforgiven sinners is surely Hell. Fully convinced of their destination the person cries out to God for mercy.Is the "ask" coming from the free will of the person themselves? Or has it been pressed out of them by Gods action upon them? His convincing them..If the latter and the person asks for forgiveness (as Christian theology indicates they must) is this honourable on the part of God and man.Is it not a gift given completely freely - the "act of asking" also being part of Gods gift?Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Charged with trying by whom?

From whence that notion?

I would have thought any definition of free will would include the notion that a person is faced with some kind of balanced choice. And that they could choose either way. A person trapped in a blazing room and who jumps out of the window of the 43rd floor cannot be said to be making a free willed choice to jump. Have you ever stood close to an approaching fire? The fire presses you back - you have no choice to stand your ground. You must jump out the window.Let's suppose the conviction of God is equivilent to a fire. And that because of it you will ask for forgiveness (jump). No choice about it at that point.

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No, the gift is not given completely freely if one has to ask for it. Regardless if that asking is stressed on them by God or not. The only way a gift is given freely (and in an honourable way) is if it didn't have to be asked for

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Does the above change your view? Let's say a person wants to give a gift to a child - but the childs hands hang down by their side. The gift cannot be received. The giver takes the childs hands, lifts them up from their side and places the gift in them. Are you saying that this action on the part of the giver destroys the gift giving? Hands lifted by the giver, asking pressed out of you by the giver. It's the same thing.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Yes. But you shouldn't confuse a person at the point of no return with the person who is not there yet. The person who is convinced (who has no choice but to jump) is not the same as a person who is not convinced (and can chose to avoid being convinced).A person who choses to evade conviction will never jump out any windows. The above might require that you modify your view. I could have avoided being exposed to that which resulted in my being convinced of my position before God. All I had to do was continue to suppress the truth that God revealed to me (as he reveals to everyone). Sure, everyone suppresses it to a greater or lesser degree - the question is, will a person suppress it until it is too late. Until the point where God says (paraphrased) "Enough is enough - thy will be done". Coercion you were free to escape from is no coercion at all.

Okay. Lets agree on a free willed choice being faced with options and that you can pick from those options. I wasn't trying to stretch the picture to cover all possible events. Generally speaking, a raging fire will compel people to jump out 43rd storey building. That's compelling enough to dispel with notions of free choice for our purposes. The picture was only meant to illustrate "a person asking God because they are pushed by God to do so" rather than "a person asking because they have a free willed choice". How this works further is explained below a little. The post to Linear AQ above deals with this. Suffice to say the scenario at the point of asking is one of complete and utter conviction (however you want to picture it). And that if completely convinced you are not faced with a free-willed option anymore - you will ask.But hang on! Your being convinced WILL ensure you ask for forgiveness. And asking for forgiveness (provided the conviction is due to Gods action on you) WILL ensure your justification before God. And your being considered justified before God WILL result in your salvation! It should be clear then that receipt of this gift occurs at the point of conviction - given that subsequent events follow assuredly and automatically as a consequence of you being convinced. The area to look at then is not the asking but the conviction. Where does will work in this scenario...? Hopefully you will see now that "the asking" occurs automatically as a consequence of conviction - which shifts the problem you might have back a little.Put it this way thus. Have you got a problem with God granting salvation only to those who become convinced by God? For if convinced > ask for forgiveness > justified > saved. Before answering, consider that a person can avoid being brought to the point of conviction by exercising their will. The question becomes this one: Have you a problem with God granting salvation only to those how don't exercise their will to the point of final rejecting his attempt to convince them?God attempts to convince. But he permits a persons will to be exercised so as to reject his attempt to convince. Is this not honourable on the part of God? We have seen the auto-consequence of conviction. What I am saying is that God attempts to lift your hands to receive his gift. You are free to resist his attempt to lift your hands. You can hold your hands behind your back. You can wrest them free of his many attempts to lift them. You do this. If you don't resist finally, he will manage to raise your hands and will drop this gift into them. The gift is called conviction.And the only thing preventing you receiving it is your will exercised against it - you don't have to exercise your will for it, indeed you cannot. You might say that "everyone will be saved except those who will it not"Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Okay. Mostly what I was dealing with was your hanging up on you "having to ask for a gift". It appeared to be an obstacle for you. I was simply pointing out that you're objecting in the wrong place. What happens is that God has to compel you to ask for forgiveness. And the way he does this is by convincing you that you need it. The gift transaction occurs at the point of his convincing you. You don't have to ask him to convince you - he attempts to convince everyone completely off his own bat. Unasked.My question is, is there anything dishonourable about this scenario for anyone concerned? You most certainly do will it not. Everyone born is born willing it not. It's a question of whether the will will insist on having it's way despite God's attempt to convince it otherwise. Unto the point where God takes your answer as final.I think that it is honourable that the creator of the universe is prepared to take "No" for an answer.It should be noted that you need not have any conscious inkling that you are dealing with God or that he is dealing with you in order for him to pose the opportunity for heaven or hell.

It's all logical enough isn't it. The devil is literally in the detail though. Part of our problem is that we are born sinners by nature. Sin is as natural as the weather to us and we see little problem in it (except when someone sins against us of course).

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Maybe some dishonour on God's part in trying to convince us that we need to ask Him, but I'm not really worried about God's honour, I'm sure He can take care of Himself.

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I don't see what is dishonouring about it. Convincing you vindicates his being merciful. Failure to convince you vindicates his being just and wrathful against rebels in his realm.You belong to God. He created you and has every right to set boundaries for your behaviour. Yet his rights concerning you are trampled upon by you. Assuming for the sake of argument that God as described does exist, it is not logical for a rebel to be unconcerned about God's honour. The "only problem" is quickly resolved. God say's we've wronged him. He's in a position to know.Forgiveness (the complete version) involves the offended paying whatever is due on behalf of the offender. Like, how it would sound if a friend lost a book you had loaned him and you said "I forgive you, now give me the $20 it cost so I can buy another copy". To forgive means you cough up the $20.When you ask God to forgive you you ask him to pay the price himself for your offence. Which he will gladly do by laying the wrath due your sin upon Jesus instead of you.The honourable thing for a defeated rebel to do is to surrender. Or face complete destruction. It is honourable for God to attempt to convince you you are defeated and without any hope of victory.He can try and convince you to wave the white flag. But he can't force you to. That's a good start. But there are a myriad of other ways you can wrong God.

Start waving. You've just called him a liar. So necessary did he think convincing you was that he sent his Holy Spirit into the world for that very purpose. To convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. You say it's not necessary for him to convince you.Nor is it of much use that you be intellectually convinced - indeed it can be a hinderance. There are people who believe God exists and believe that they don't keep his law. And they ask for forgiveness for it. But it is not their hearts that have been convinced by God rather it is their intellects that have been convinced by their religion or culture. In his day, Jesus called them white washed tombs full of dead mens bones.Nope, it is conviction by God that is required. That is the only thing that would bring you truly to your knees. His conviction, on his terms, in his time. The problem is that you are an out and out sinner. And it is not in the remit of sinners to be honest when their independence from God is in anyway threatened. Which is why you don't get to contribute in any positive way to your own salvation. In so far as it relies on you the only thing you can contribute to is your damnation. Salvation is the work of God - not you.You, my friend, have to do precisely... nothing. And if you do nothing he'll push you out the window of the 43rd floor so that you can fall to your death.You have to die in order to be born again. And it might hurt a bit.

Your not a Christian? I'm not sure that that asking for forgiveness is the primary thing that God needs to convince you of. Central to things seems to be total acknowledgement that you can no longer continue to operate independently of God. That you must give up your place on the throne of your life. In that would be a realisation that you require forgiveness for having insisted upon your way for so long. Forgiveness as an element of the whole show of salvation.Besides, that a person has been convinced of their need for anothers forgiveness doesn't mean the conviction is a salvation-related one, to my mind. There is a call of conscience issued to all, afterall. That is to say, that a person is convicted by the general call of conscience doesn't mean tbe conviction is a salvation-related . Lots of people agree that starvation in Africa is a terrible thing. They are convinced. But not to the point of putting their hands deep into their pockets. You say that you are convinced. And I believe you when you say you are. But how deep is it possible for conviction to plunge to? Could I suggest that you couldn't know until you get there?As to personally and honestly dealing with God. If the Bibles general description of fallen man is that he has a deceitful heart and is enslaved to sin (as a junkie is enslaved to heroin) how do you suppose yourself, as a fallen man, to deal honestly with God? Okay. Not that that in itself counts for a whole lot. A gospel of grace is required precisely because man has become foolish in his reasoning. He thinking is skewed. He cannot reason correctly about the things of God. He is blind to the things of God in fact. Which is why his salvation doesn't rely on him at all. You were going to rely on your dealing honestly with God weren't you?. If such a thing could contribute could you not boast of that? "I am saved partily due to my honest dealing with God". Boasting of anything at all is clearly excluded in the gospel. I beg to differ. Jesus commissioned his disciples (of which I am one) to tell others of the good news. This is not to say I contribute to your salvation in any way. I'm just a messenger. And part of the messaging involves correcting error where it is plain. You have repeated your salvation partly dependant upon you (your honesty) in the same paragraph where you say salvation is of God Do read it again. I said that you had to do precisely nothing. That it is good that you do precisely nothing. You having to do something is called a works-based salvation. Even if you think the thing done is a noble thing. There you go again. Relying on yourself. Relying on your own ability to discern truth from lie. I can only speak from experience Stile. And what I found was that God was more than capable of ensuring I came to him.All I needed to do was nothing - which wasn't all that hard in my case. As far as I was consciously concerned, I wasn't looking for God. So was unlikely to be "doing things" to help things alongEdited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. I'm pretty sure I said that you wouldn't necessarily know it was God-at-work-attempting-to-convict-you. Which is a little different to you-having-been-finally-convinced-without-your-knowing-it.Final conviction is the tipping point into salvation. One of the (many) things that occur at this point is God making a temple of the person so as to take up residence within them. I'd find it hard to conceive of someone NOT knowing that this has occurred. If it has occurred. It does. So long as we understand the conviction you experience about you being a sinner or in need of forgiveness might not be the same as the final conviction that God works towards. It could be part of it. But just not final. The Bible is fairly clear on the lot of fallen man, Stile. Such men are "under the sway and rule of the wicked one (satan)". Such men are, in a manner of speaking, sin addicts. These are NOT God-given abilities and certainly NOT abilities conducive to trusting yourself. Once accepting of this biblical slant you can see the dilemmas mounting as to the accuracy of your self-assessment.What else can you do? The answer for such a one as you and me (as I once was) is clearly and absolutely... nothing. In so far as God manages to push you along you will move along in his direction. That you would perceive yourself as decision maker along the way is neither here nor there. If saved and looking back with 20/20 hindsight you would see that it was God who managed to manoevre you into positions. That it was him using circumstance to steer you through the maze towards him. It is indeed possible to boast of lots of things. Just not of contributing to one's own salvation in any way, shape or form.As to lying to God? Of course you can. The lie-recipients ability to know you are lying doesn't alter your ability to lie. Just look at young children lying through their beautiful little teeth at you. Does your ability to perceive the lie alter the fact of their lying?In order to be honest with God you would need some stable, neutral platform from which to strike off. What is that platform - given the fall? Hopeless addiction to sin? Blindness to truth? At emnity with God? This is how the Bible describes fallen man. I am not judging. I'm commenting from a position. I can't help the fact that I am saved. I can't help the fact that many here are not. All I can do is comment. Not judge.As pointed out, your ability for honesty is fatally compromised. You might see it as you looking through a particular shade of lens. If true is white all you will see from your perspective is tinted red. Try as you might, you yourself cannot see white. Even on my side of the fence, where seeing white becomes possible, I can only see faintly, through a glass darkly as Paul puts it.I'm not holier-than-thou. I'm a beggar pointing the starving to where they can find food. That is the so called "great commission" To be pointers. We've already dealt with the problem of honesty.Salvation is indeed Gods to give. And he decides whether his criterion for saving a person is met or not. That is not to say that a person like me cannot know what that criterion is or whether a person hasn't met it yet. It's not judgment on my part. Merely observation. Of course you are. Your posts drip words indictating your contributing. For instance.. "All you are doing" is your work, your effort, your willpower, your version of honesty. Such things will result in your not lying at times, not tricking at others, trying not to hide as best you know how - when you might otherwise want to. This all takes effort on your part. Expenditure of effort.I'm not judging Stile but your very words don't seem to be able to free you from the notion that you must do "something" to contribute to your salvation. Even if it's only trying to be honest.Romans is the book in which the mechanics of the gospel is laid out. Introducing it, Paul tells us that he is not ashamed of the gospel of God because "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe".The power of God is what saves men. Not the power of menEdited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Fair enough, but to finally clarify. Can I take it that your being honest leans more towards being compelled to honesty than towards something you figure is the best way forward and should actively try to be? An interesting point.If God-at-work-on-you is what compelled you from a former life of dishonesty/disinterest into a position of honesty/interest, then your honesty and interest wouldn't be the result of you doing something. Rather, it would be the result of him doing something and you not doing something to resist that happening (assuming you were permitted the option to resist). In which case you would be where you are now precisely because you did nothing to prevent it happening. Or insufficent to prevent it happening.Carry forth that notion - up to the point where God delivers you to and beyond the point of salvation. It can be said then, that your salvation was of God. That you did nothing of which you can boast by way of contribution.Which takes us away from the original issue... If is the case that you are compelled by Gods work to ask (at that point in your journey) just as God's work compels you to honesty (at this point in your journey) would you be happy that Christianities insistance doesn't render it dishonourable?Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

You probably wouldn't until the time when you could look back with 20/20 hindsight. When I used the word "lean" I was trying to avoid notions of dead certainty from your perspective. It might have been an impossible question to answer from your perspective in fact.Perhaps we can only go so far as settling on your view that your contributing to your salvation in any way is a dishonourable thing and something you would want to avoid. You might even agree that you would want to be steered, by God, into avoiding even unconscious attempts to contribute to your salvation - so dishonourable would you find that. It's not so much a matter of whether you would or not. It's a matter of whether you could or not. Clearly, if you could contribute to your salvation you could decide to boast of the decisions you made which proved contributary. As outlined earlier, being compelled to ask [/i]is part of the gift[/i]. Asking is an auto-consequence of final and complete conviction (by God). The gift is received and unwrapped the moment God finally convinces you.Being brought to that final conviction is that which could have been prevented by you. The road along which your will had opportunity to say a final No! to God. The road along which God's efforts converning you weren't tipping-point compelling.By the way, what's the name of that painting in your avatar. Lovely lighting.

All the worlds relgions (including Roman Catholicism) position you w.r.t. God/gods/Enlightenment/Karma/Whatever-The-Positive-Outcome-On-Offer-Is .... depending on your contribution. They all hold that man must somehow make himself right with God. Which permits man to hold his head up before God. This self-standing before God, this independance...is the thing which got man into trouble in the first place. So it's actually a very serious thing.In Christianity, God is the one who brings man into rightstanding with God. ? I repeat. The gift commences on conviction. You didn't ask for that or apply for it. I suspect it is a painting. Just the way the light is in it. I wonder why would anyone picture-google..... "stile". Perhaps you were inspired to by God

What part of "you have received the gift before you've asked for it" do you not understand? I looked it up. It's a photo taken around the village of Chobham in England. Looks a little like it's been digitally filtered - which had me suppose it was a painting. Nice all the same.Interesting choice given your apparent current position. A stile being indeed a crossover point at the boundary of lands divided by stream, hedgerow or fence. I note too that your picture is taken from the viewpoint of a person emerging from a tunnel of darkness - heading towards the source of light which lies on the other side of the stile.Perhaps it was my 20/20 hindsight that drew me to your picture. A sense of deja vu.