Honour Amongst Christians

I don't really know. I don't understand geology as well as the more-inclined. I also don't really know what the Bible says about the flood, and I certainly don't know what you think concerning the possibility of a world wide flood.The good news is it doesn't really matter what I think or know. What matters is what you find in an honest search of reality and the Bible.Taking your first question on it's own "Does reality trump my (ICANT's) view of what happened according to the Bible", I'd say yes, it should.Reality is direct evidence from God. The Bible is indirect evidence from God, and has possibly been corrupted over the years it's been in the hands of man.This doesn't mean that those who spout things about reality are right and you are wrong. It means that what you find in reality, after an honest search, should out-weigh that which you find in the Bible, after an honest search.Or, that's how I see it, anyway. You're free to call me a crazy crackpot

I really don't think you understand what I'm saying. So I'm only going to reply to the one part of your message where all the errors stem from. Hopefully this time it won't get lost in a big reply. I really, really don't have any notion that I must do "something" to contribute to my salvation. At all.The only notion I have that I must do "something" is in the same notion that everyone must always be doing "something". While talking to me, you are not doing nothing, you're doing something, you're being honest, your trying to persuade me, you may be sitting... you're doing things because it's impossible for us to do nothing. This is the only sense that I'm being honest. I'm simply being honest because I have to be something, just like everyone else.Now, let's tack on the extra part of doing something to contribute to my salvation. In this sense, I'm doing absolutely nothing. I gurantee you. It's abhorrent to me in the worst sense, it's extemely dishonourable for me to try and do anything at all to earn salvation in any way. I agree with you completely that doing anything to get salvation is a bad thing. And I asure you that I'm doing nothing in order to gain salvation.I hope you understand this now.

I don't understand where this comes from. Maybe I'm confused by your position.Way back in Message 154, you said: I took this to mean that you understood that the Bible was passed down by "word of mouth for a long time", and therefore may possibly be corrupt. And that this corruption is no fault of God's, but simply by man's.Therefore, if reality and the Bible don't mesh, there's no dishonour on God, simply some dishonour on those men who used the Bible to their own means or perhaps were simply mistaken in their word of mouth passing down of the passages. My point is that we should focus on finding God's direct true Word from reality rather than looking to confirm some word that's likely been corrupted in the word of mouth translations for hundreds of years. I don't have anything I'd like to (or ought to) find. I'm just searching, that's all. I think it's better to search for God in reality than in something that passed through word of mouth for such a long time.

I'm not sure. How would I know the difference? If on one side I have decisions I make because they seem like the best decisions to make, and on the other I have a choice where I can't-choose-otherwise (since I'm being compelled). How can I tell if I'm actually choosing something, or just not-choosing the opposite? Sure, could very well be. I'm not sure how I can identify the difference. Sure, we could say that. Even if we didn't say that, and we said it was all my decisions and my choices, I wouldn't be boasting about anything either. So, again, with both I've got nothing to boast about, so how do I tell the difference? No, I wouldn't be happy. Being compelled to ask for a gift doesn't somehow make getting that gift honourable. "I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for". Regardless of why or how I'm asking, the asking removes any honour. It may certainly still be good, but there's no honour in receiving something you asked for.So I agree that if God goes around compelling people, I may certainly well eventually get compelled to ask for forgiveness/salvation, but when I do, it will be without honour. And that would make me disappointed (unless, of course, I was somehow compelled not to be disappointed as well).

Sounds fair to me. But even if I didn't contribute at all to my salvation, I could still boast about it as much as I could if I did contribute. Lots of people boast about plenty of things they really don't have any reasonable stance to boast about. But this is a minor point, and I don't really have a problem with it anyway. Then it is inherent in the gift that it is without honour. This doesn't make the gift any less good, or bad in any way. It's just that there's no honour in it. That's not necessarily a bad thing. There's also no honour in getting a job that you applied for. This certainly can be one of the greatest things, but there's no honour in it, simply because you applied for it.The simple fact that we ask for it (forced into this or not) means there's no honour in receiving it. It doesn't make it dishonourable, or bad, or evil or anything. There's just nothing especially honourable about it. I don't know, I stole it from a website. How honourable is that? Are you sure it's a painting? I just picture-googled "stile" and this was the most comforting picture I found. A stile is just some wood near a fence that helps a farmer climb over and not get cow-dung all over themselves.

If you're forced to ask for something, convicted to ask for something, or ask for something of your own volition, it doesn't matter. There's still no honour in it.If this is God's method, then He's chosen to remove honour from the situation. You can view this as a good thing (some think honour is only an excuse to boast). But that's still what it is. God could grant salvation to those He wants to, without convicting them to ask for forgiveness/salvation. There would then be honour in receiving the gift.God doesn't do this (according to you), He convicts us to ask for forgiveness/salvation. This certainly may be a good thing, but there is no honour in receiving this gift. Um... I picture-googled "stile" because that's what I chose for my screen-name. I wanted a picture to represent what the name meant. Just as if my name was Taz and I looked for a picture of the Tazmanian Devil cartoon.

I think we're kind of arguing two different things and it's getting confusing. Let's remember what we're talking about.To be honest with myself, I do not believe God exists.
To receive God's conviction, you think I need to believe He exists (at the minimum), no?
Am I doomed to go to Hell because I honestly use the gifts I have (given to me from God, if He exists) to conclude that God likely doesn't exist?
In order to go to Heaven, must I dishonour the gifts given to me and lie to myself?What we're talking about now seems to be getting more into God's honour in bestowing the gift of forgiveness/salvation. I don't really care about that. I'm sure God (being infinite) understands the concept of honour, and can deal with it however He wishes. What I'm talking about is the problem from my perspective, since I have the ability to change how I act. I stole the idea for the name from a character in a Piers Anthony novel I read many years ago. Again, showing off my honour I've used it as an internet handle for many years, even many years before I started considering any EvC type debates. I just like trees. Maybe. I like to think it's because it's a calming, comforting picture. That's why I chose it, anyway.

Okay, that sort of cleared up some things. Maybe I was confused from some of the other conversations as well. Let's try this, is this what you're saying?-I am honest with myself and I happen to not believe that God exists
-One day God may convict me to ask for forgiveness/salvation (if I think of it as "being thankful for the gift", is that okay?) and therefore receive that gift
-The "asking" isn't so much of one's own volition as it is an inevitable result of being convicted.Is this what you're saying? I agree that this is a fine scenario, and I don't really have a problem with it. But it doesn't address my question. I'm not concerned (in this thread) about the future where I honestly become convinced of God's existence (or get convicted). I am asking about the future where I honestly never become convinced of God's existence (or get convicted).To be clear, I am not worried that one day being honest with myself may lead me to believe in God. If that happens, then I certainly will believe. I am simply wondering that since this isn't the case currently, if I were to die right now, would I go to Hell because I did not become convicted? Or in other words, would I go to Hell because I was being honest with myself? In the case of "yes", I'm wondering why God would punish anyone for being honest. No, I would not consider this honourable. I would simply consider this the right thing to do at the moment. An honourable surrender to the enemy is one where you surrender before you are defeated entirely. The honourable surrender saves as many of your own soldier's lives as you can. Once you are "entirely defeated", you've past the point of saving some fighter's lives for the sake of surrendering. There is a point around "will lose many of our own people but will still win the war" where surrender is honourable, and it is definitely before "defeated entirely". Where there is no hope for winning, then there is no honour in surrendering, it's simply the right thing to do. Like I've been saying before, just because something is good and right doesn't mean it's honourable. If you wait until you're entirely defeated, you've past the point of an honourable surrender.

The king? No. I'm discussing (or trying to, anyway) mine. In your example, "me" would be the subjects. And no, there's no honour in being granted a pardon that you've petitioned for.
I'm sure God (the King) is capable of dealing with His own honour-issues. I don't really care what other people are, or do.
I think honour is an important virtue, and therefore I try to be honourable when it makes sense. Mostly I'm worried about honesty, which is really what the thread's about, it's just that honour get's more attention (and is closely related to honesty anyway) and I'm using underhanded tactics to add to the popularity of this thread

Yes, it is a fine line between pride and honour. It's a good thing what you say here isn't what I'm doing, or else it would definitely be pride.Parents have one cookie for dessert. Two kids want it. One pleads and begs for it, the other steps back and lets the decision be made by the parents. Regardless of what happens... if the cookie is split, whoever gets it, it doesn't matter. The one how asked has no honour, the one who didn't ask does.This is my situation. Yes, I need to be very careful not to fall into the pride trap, that's why it's also dishonourable to "expect" anything or try to earn it. That would be pride.It's still only honourable to receive a gift if you didn't ask for it.

So, reading between the lines... you're saying that God will convict everyone before they die, no exceptions, right? Is that true?Then I have nothing to worry about, I will just keep being honest with the information available. I agree. I certainly agree that it's very dishonourable to not be honest. And suppression of any truth (regardless if it's from God or not) is dishonourable. I'd never try to do this.I will just continue to be honest with the information available, then. It seems like you're saying that's what we should be doing. I agree, and think this is honourable as well. There is no honourable option available anymore. The smart thing to do would be to admit defeat, but it's no longer honourable. When all hope is gone, and all chances of winning are gone, so is any honourable surrender. Surrendering when you are completely defeated is not honourable, it's simply good management."the chance of winning remained until you are on your knees... you are now on your knees, defeated..." The point of honourable surrender has past.You don't lose any honour, it's not dishonourable, but it's not honourable either.How does this analogy correlate to what we're talking about anyway? I'm not in a battle I'm trying to win against God. I'm just trying to be honest with the information available to me. As soon as there's any information I can honestly evaluate about the existence of God in any way, I will look at it in earnest. I do not have anything standing in the way, or blocking the path. I'm simply honestly living life, and at this point right now, it honestly looks like the Christian God doesn't exist (to me, anyway).

Honour has everything to do with honesty. Without honesty, you can't have honour, any kind. And I explained what I'm talking about in the first sentence of the first post of this thread:

quote:

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By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".

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And I'm stressing the "looks for nothing in return" part. So not so much "helping those less fortunate", but anything good that "looks for nothing in return".How can you honestly look for nothing in return, if you're not honest? Honour hinges on being honest. No offense, but you saying I'm in need of a pardon does not make it so. My honest evalutation of this scenario says you're trying to lay a guilt trip on me for some reason. That's not nice of you.And even if it was true, to me, no, honour would still be a bigger deal. I wouldn't ask for a pardon. I would either deserve it, or I wouldn't. What other people decide... things that are out of my control, isn't important. What matters is being honest and doing what we can with our abilities. How can you possibly do better then your best?

The terms of surrender? The battle hasn't even been presented to me, in this thread or otherwise. Are you talking about what iano is saying?It seems to me that iano and I are in agreement that I should be honest, and that's what's expected of me. When (if?) God feels the time has come to show Himself to me, I'm listening to the best of my abilities. Honesty? Okay, I'll do that. Are you saying that God (if He exists) wants me to lie to the very gifts He bestowed upon me? I don't think that sounds right at all. In fact, my conscience is screaming to me that to lie about this is very wrong.You can say I'm full of pride if you'd like. But I'm not refusing to listen, or displaying any other traits that would imply pride in any way. But I'm not acting with pride, or at least I'm trying my best not to. And I'm not clinging to honour, I'm just trying my best to be honest and do what I think is right. I certainly wouldn't enjoy any punishment imposed on me. But if that's my fate because I won't lie to myself, then I suppose I am condemned.

I never believe in anything because people simply tell me it's true. That is the worst way to lie yourself, and become involved in the worst evils of this existence without even knowing they're bad.Doomed is the liar and cheat who manipulates people. Doomed as well are those who are manipulated because they don't use the abilities they have been given to investigate.

You are absolutely correct. I used the wrong wording there, and I should have been more careful.What I meant to say was that either I will be granted a pardon, or I will not. Whatever happens I cannot earn it or deserve it or control it in any way. It is God's gift, and His to grant. I am not worthy, I agree I've done plenty of evil things myself.This, however, doesn't change anything I meant in the last post.