Honour Amongst Christians

I see. But this doesn't alter what I think is best, then. I should keep being honest, and evaluate all possible invitations from God and eventually I will find Him (or He will find me, anyway). Fully understood and agreed. But how else am I to set my compass then to honestly search for God so He can do so? I mean, I can't set my compass to yours (no offense) because you're human as well. I can't set my compass to my family's or my friends, or Steven Hawking's, or the Pope's, or anyone's. So all I can do is continue to be as open and honest as I possibly can until God sets my compass. Do you have another option? Agreed. And, as for the same reasons above, my only choice is to use my abilities to their best until God helps me to become aware. So I should keep being honest and open and listen closely to where the answers could be. I agree completely. Still. I agreed completely to this the last time you said so. Of course that would be dishonourable. But just because one option is dishonourable, doesn't make the other option honourable. Honour isn't that easy. Admitting defeat isn't always honourable. And when you do so at the end of your rope, with no other option left anyway, it certainly isn't honourable, it's simply the only option you have left at this point. Okay. Lose what? I choose surrender, as soon as God makes His offer, anyway. No. Says iano. See the name above where it says "Member" for your account? It says "iano". Even if it did say "God", I'd be highly suspicious at this point. The scenario you provide may very well be true, but then again it may be a false path. Right now, my honest evaluation says that this is a false path. I have no other choice but to be true to my honest evalutation. At least, until God sets my compass, anyway. The Bible cannot be used to set my compass. I fully understand that my compass may be wonkey. But the Bible cannot correct it, there are too many obviously evil problems with the Bible. But I don't want to get into that. We can just say that my honest evaluation of the Bible is that it's not a good compass setter, and that it's not from God. Absolutely true, for now. If you have any other options available, I'd really like to hear about them. All I can do is be open to allowing God to set my compass the way He sees fit. And the only way I can do that, is to the best of my current abilities. I'm listening the best I possibly can, and trying to hear anything God has to say to me.

I agree. And I have no problems whatsoever with this scenario you present. Hopefully the simplification didn't leave out any important nuances.So, now I will just continue to live honestly until (if) I'm ever asked if I would like the gift.In fact, I've already silently wondered if anyone is attempting to give me a gift and I just can't hear them for whatever reason, and in that case I have already asked for (or accepted) the gift as well.I haven't received any confirmation yet, though. But that may very well be irrelevent.And it leaves me in exactly the same current situation, honestly searching. From what you've said, by the way, I don't think I have any problem with the theology you believe in. It seems like I'm in line with what you're describing in this post, anyway.

As soon as I even have an inkling that this isn't a false path. Even a little, tiny, possibility of a chance that this wasn't created by men, and promoted by men, then I will receive this pardon as quickly as humanly possible.I asure you.The only problem is that my honest evaluation tells me that this isn't the way, though. I'd be lying to myself (and God) if I said I believed in Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to be stubborn or an ass or anything, that's just the way it looks to me. I can't lie and say "I believe in Jesus Christ". I'm pretty sure God would know I was lying anyway, don't you think? So am I doomed to the lake of fire forever, because my honest evaluation of what is right and true tells me that Jesus Christ is not the path to gaining salvation?I'm not saying I know what the path is, I'm not saying I have a better idea, I'm not saying I have any answers at all. All I'm saying is that, for me, I can't honestly say that I believe that Jesus Christ is the path to salvation.There's too many false-path options. And, frankly, Jesus Christ is just another rag in the hamper. I can't see anything about Jesus Christ that puts him above any other persons' personal story about the path to salvation. I honestly can't. If I believed in Jesus Christ, it would be because I believe ICANT. And, well, I don't believe you.If this dooms me, then I am doomed.All I can do is continue to be honest, and evaluate everyone's claims to the path of salvation as best I can.

I think that's a very healthy understanding of religious fundamentals. Too bad that the ones who believe they are awful things and must be castigated generally also have larger mouths. These folk tend to spread what they think is the word, and end up hurting a lot of other-wise innocent (although possibly a bit naive) individuals. Then the snowball grows. It's this kind of mess I wish I was capable of doing something to help prevent.'Prevent' may be the wrong word. 'Correct' would probably be better. I don't think it would be an efficient use of resources to try and stop the large-mouthed spreaders. There seems to be an unending supply, and their work is quick. I think the best method is an attempt to provide an honest alternative that those who are searching for truth can judge using their own merits. That's part of the reason why I like this forum so much. It's very nice here.

I don't know, I never thought about keeping track. Maybe... 3-4 years? A possibility, yes. But I see no better alternative.Maybe that's the problem. Do you think I'm being bleak or somehow depressed when I say things like this? I assure you I'm far from that. I'm a rather optimistic person. I laugh a lot, I have a great family, excellent friends, the best girlfriend in the world. I've been blessed in life, that is for sure.When I say "I see no better alternative", I don't mean it in any sad-ish type of way. I simply mean that it's the best I can do. And I don't know of a way to do better. Just a plain evaluation of my current stance, that's all. No. And I won't be, either. And yes, I still am a seeker. I have read enough of the Bible on my own. And I have listened intently to those who promote it (preachers, the Pope, Mother Theresa, people like you on message boards...) I've never noticed anything in the Bible, or in those who promote it, that would imply that the Bible is all that important. Some say it, for sure, some scream it, in fact. But reality does not reflect these claims. It is a fact that any and all human traits are obtained independant of reading the Bible, or of what the Bible says. Therefore, the only thing that the Bible could contain a meaningful message about is the afterlife or some alternate reality. And, of course, there are plenty of other texts that also claim things about the afterlife or some alternate reality. And, of course, all these books (including the Bible) have exactly the same personal testimony to prove their worth. So no, I'm not going to waste more time reading the Bible, or reading any other religious texts in order to gain information on the afterlife. They are all equally useless, simply because they are all equally valid.I will, however, continue to read the Bible (and other religious texts) for what they should be used for: Personal use to contrast what I think life should be about and for ideas about what certain past civilizations believed about the afterlife or alternate realities. This will be done at my own pace, though. And any refusal of mine to read any portion espoused by you or anyone else has absolutely no effect on any qualifications I may have about being a seeker. But I have read problems in the Bible. The Bible does not coincide with reality in my evaluation. This isn't a sole-property of the Bible. There are problems like this in every religious text that attempts to promote itself as an authority in this way. But all my needs are supplied (and more). And I do not walk and talk with God (as far as I can tell). I do not have concrete evidence that God is real. This would be extremely convincing, actually. But the problem is so many other people have the exact same conviction and stories about different religions. So many to choose from, each with the exact same strength and power behind it. How can I possibly choose one? I won't take your word for anything (I mean that plainly, not in any offending tone). And I am a true seeker, as well as I can be, anyway. But I will seek honestly for all the information, not only the Bible, not only my mind, not only my country, I will honestly seek all the information available in this reality. Anything less would be dishonest. Thank-you very much. I hope this doesn't come off as offensive, but I do hope you're right, ICANT. I hope your journey is the right one. And hopefully I'll see the truth when it's made available to me.

To tell other people that things are a certain way only if you can show that this is true.It's certainly possible that personal-conviction may align with the truth of reality. But to espouse this to others as if it's some verifiable fact when there's really no way to be sure is lying by omission at best, and a professional con-job at worst. Either case certainly contains no honour.

It certainly is the big question. And again, the devil sending confusing choices would also be convincing, if most other religions and stories didn't also have the exact same confusion defense as well. I'm still left with hundreds (thousands? millions?) of religions and stories that all have equal strength and power behind them.

But this is just the thing. This is exactly what I am doing. I am facing truth when I come to it, and not suppressing it. Judging to the best of my abilities, yes.Your option is for me to accept your compass setting? Take your truth? That is not an option, your compass is equally as unknowably wonky. Sure there are other options. I can wiggle my big toe as well, do you think that's important to our conversation? We're talking about meaningful options. The two left are surrender, or resist in some useless, meaningless way. Neither option, at this point, is honourable. Not all the time, but it is required to admit defeat when you don't have to in order for that admission of defeat to be honourable. If you have to admit defeat, there's no honour in admitting defeat, it's simply the only thing left for you to do.If I'm in a war, and I can "win", but the sacrifice to my forces will be extremely large, it is honourable to surrender. I don't have to admit defeat, but I do, in order to save the forces under my control. That is honourable. Admitting defeat when you're already defeated is not honourable, you've already missed the point where you could have saved some of the forces under your control. Now those forces are gone, and you still have to surrender, that's why there's no honour in it. If this has happened, and I am unaware, while trying my best to listen and be aware, then I had no chance of accepting the offer in the first place. Again, you're attempting to set my compass to your compass. We already know that both our compasses are equally unknowably wonky. So I can only do my best to identify which is more likely. All the direct evidence from God (reality) I have available to me says that you're wrong, and that I need to continue to be honest and listen for advice.Lying to myself is in extreme opposition to my compass. I know my compass may be wonky, but it's all I have. You telling me that I should lie to myself is useless because that's only your possibly-wonky compass.So I have two possibly wrong choices... be honest, or lie to myself. I choose to be honest.

And that's only recorded Christianity. Given Christianity represents, what, 40% of the worlds population? (I'm guessing).That gives us something like 90,000 institutionalized choices as a ball-park figure.With every single one being equally strong and persuasive.
And we need to remember that the choices that haven't been institutionalized are also equally strong and persuasive. I hope so, you too.

Hello truthlover, how are you today? I agree with your view here, and try to live to such standards myself. Reading through your post, I see we have many similarities. Then a curious question hit me, if you and I are so similar, so similar that I cannot see a practical difference in our truth-seeking, does it matter if you're a Christian and I am not?To attempt to clarify what I'm thinking about, I'm going to show the rest of my thoughts from reading your post: I also believe along the same lines you do. But I don't understand what you mean by being "completely sold out" for Christianity. I mean, if you are "sold out", and I am not, and there's not really any difference in what we believe... why should anyone become a Christian? Or, are you simply offering it as another path? One that if you do try, you need to be completely sold out for? I can see why that would be beneficial, to those who find that path appealing. Or is there some extra benefit I've missed as well?Basically, what are you gaining from being a Christian that I am missing? You also note that there's a problem answering why God allows evil in the world. If our stances are equal, and I told you that I have no such problem, since to me, there's evil in the world simply because some people act selfishly... would you convert away from Christianity? If these problems exist, that don't exist elsewhere, what's holding you into Christianity? Yes, and the life I know (non-religious honesty) works, and it works really well too. I'd say it's also not terribly different from what Gandhi practiced. I'd say I treat Truth as a power simply because it's very difficult to argue with reality. I don't see a requirement for a being to represet the ideals of Truth and Wisdom when the ideals themselves exist on their own.But, again, I may just be missing something. Especially since you add the "Word of God". Is this something beyond Truth and Wisdom? What sort of knowledge do you attain from the Word of God that is unattainable otherwise? Thank-you for the invitation, but again I'm curious as to your motive. You see, others on this thread are giving me places to search because they believe it's impossible for me to attain salvation otherwise. Is your motive similar? Do you belive that my salvation depends on me converting to become a Christian? If not, what is the motive for your invitation? Do you believe I'm in need of something that I can only gain from these areas?Or is this an invitation to a place that helped you, and you're simply offering the same? Not as a required path, but as a path you simply know of that worked for you?It's just, your offer kind of came in a similar form as others that had... less than honourable intentions. But the actual intentions of your offer are unclear, and certainly could be "just to help out, if possible". I'm not trying to be arrogant, or condscending, I'm just trying to fit your offer in as part of this topic and keep the theme tied together. I apologize if any of this dissecting of your kind offer of assistance comes off as crude, I'm just a curious kind of fellow

That would certainly make it stand out.However, this isn't our case. In fact, each of the 90,000 distinctly scream out they are the one that swims against the tide of the rest that are all the same.Mostly for different reasons, of course. But the fact remains that none of these has any better reasoning than any other. They all have the same power and strength behind their identity of being the 'one that swims against the tide of all the rest'.I've looked into Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Catholicism and Christianity, and many others, they're all in this boat. Buddhism seems the quietest of the crew, though. But it still has the same strength and power as all the rest in the fundamentals.Equally valid. And therefore, equally useless in identifying which is "the one". Given, of course, that "a one" even exists.

But... I've said over and over again. I agree that my compass is possibly wonkey. Therefore I don't think I'm able to accurately perceive and judge truth. I'm just not currently presented with any better alternative. I don't. I have a wonky compass. Everyone else has a wonky compass. Instead of using someone elses wonky compass, I've just decided to stick with my own, for now. What difference does it make which wonky compass I use? It's all I can do for now. No, not safe at all. Because I don't place trust in my own ability to steer myself along. I just also don't place trust in your ability or anyone elses ability to steer myself along because we're all in the same wonky-compass boat. That leaves me with nothing buy my wonky compass. I don't "choose" my wonky compass because I think it's good in any way. I'm "stuck" with my wonky compass because there's no better alternative. Perhaps something else. But definitely not someone else. Since 'someone' would also be human, and would therefore also have a wonky compass, and they too would have no way to identify if it's wonky or not. Which means... I'm still using my wonky compass until something better comes along. All I can do is honestly search, listen, and hope that I'll be able to recognize that something when (if) I get my chance.

To me, Gandhi's power and confidence came exactly from "the simple acknowledgment of reality". When you have reality on your side, it's kind of hard for other people to argue. It's the highest source of confidence and power because, well, it's unassailable. You can show it to anyone, and most people can see it without even needing it to be shown because it is so obvious.But we're simply arguing semantics here now. You believe there's a being behind this power, I think the power exists simply because we understand the reality of the ideas. I don't really think either stance is better. Okay. But can you answer the question, then? The question was "What sort of knowledge do you attain from the Word of God that is unattainable otherwise?" and you said "not ideals or knowledge, but power". So now the question is "What sort of power (rational, even) do you attain from the Word of God that is unattainable otherwise?"It's okay, I currently think the only answer to this question is "there isn't any", so I'm perfectly fine with you not answering, but you should have your chance to change my mind. I certainly wouldn't want to continue thinking 'there isn't any' if there is in fact something I'm missing. Yes, answered my questions very well, thanks. And, actually, Christianity was presented from a different perspective from members such as jar, Ringo and Brennakimi all earlier (much earlier) in the thread. Huh... weird that they're all gone curently... watch your back, truthlover But thank-you all the same for your own unique perspective. That's exactly what I'm searching for, anyone's perspective that I may be able to learn from, or gain anything from. ...I'm selfish like that From the answers you provided, I've gained more confidence that my own methods are "just as good" and therefore still "the best available to me". This adds to my personal reality-based confidence and power. Of course, I could add even more if you're capable of answering the above question and telling me something I'm missing. Your use of the words "I hope" and "I believe" flag to me that you are aware that there are some things you cannot "know for sure". This is what sets you apart, and what makes me give much respect your way. The way of Truth is marked by our acknolwedgments of the things we are not fully aware of. It is those who understand their limits who will forward our gathering of Truth, simply because those limits are a part of our Truth. Not acknowledge those limits is the beggining of a slippery slope away from the Truth. Well, those limits are currently a part of the Truth, anyway (as far as I can tell). If this is what you mean by the 'rational power' behind your beliefs, then I admit to you that I already have this as well. My "seeking" isn't seeking for Utopia. But how can we know we have "the best" of anything, if we don't search around to see what else is out there? That's what my seeking is, a continued search for anything even slightly better. I'm not beneath searching for more, you know, in case I happen to be wrong If this search ever ends, it will be because I gain the ability to "know everything". Without that ability, it's possible that something I don't know is better than what I already know. I know I don't know everything right now, so my search for possibly-better-Utopias continues.

Of course. This is a huge possibility I'm glaringly aware of, and yet have no idea how to get around. I thought so, but a miss-step here could prove disastrous later, I just wanted to make sure. Of course, I'd love to. And I'm listening and waiting and hoping and pleading on my knees for such an event to happen. Of course, I'm doing all this with my wonky-compass. But, well, I don't really have any other choice. My wonky-compass cannot get set until this happens.And I cannot take direction from you, or your friends, or my friends, or any preacher, or the Pope, or Mother Theresa, or the President, or 'the greatest scientific minds of our time', or my family, or any other person. Because we're all in the same wonky-compass boat. Well, I can take direction from any or all of these sources, but there's no reason to, and certainly no good reason to. So I'm stuck with my own wonky compass. I think I should wait for a good reason before I go changing something as drastic as my compass, you know, what all morals and standards are based on. Yes, I need a good reason. God is a good reason. You (or anyone else) is not, because you have a wonky compass too. Yes, that's a great example root, and I understand this is the attribute Christianity defends. But this isn't the only possible root, and every single other choice from the 90,000 available have their own root. Each root is equally powerful, equally believed, equally 'obviously upstream against the other 90,000', equally 'the choice where all the others are simply noise', equally 'the specific root attribute common in all other false systems, which operates in polar-opposite sense to the same root attribute in their own true system', equally proven, equally 'unique', equally valid.Which again, makes them all equally useless for identifying the correct one. If a correct one even exists at all.I don't think you understand the difference. When something is truly the polar-opposite of all the others, and it's obvious it's different, then everyone in the entire world understands the same thing. Like identifying pure water. It's defined by 1 combination of elements. Water is H₂O. And the entire world agrees. That's an obviously true statement. And it's obviously true because it's part of reality. We can do it again and again and again and it's always the same. Anyone can do it and it's always the same. It can be done anywhere and it's always the same. I've done it, and I agree, water is H₂O. I've tried with religions, I've tried Christianity, I've tried Islam, I've tried many others. Each one is equally valid. Each one has exactly the same identical strength in it's claim to reality.Not a single religion has any better claim to reality then any other. Not Christianity, not Islam, not any of the 90,000 choices. This is because all these choices have an equal ability to show their inclusion in reality. Every single one, in every single way. There's no way to tell them apart. If there was, there wouldn't be 90,000 of them. There'd be 1. Like water, only H₂O. Only 1 way. There's over 90,000 choices for a religion.Of course, it's possible we just haven't discovered how to tell the religions apart yet. But when that day comes, there will only be 1 religion. If that happens, I'll certainly be with that religion. But while there's still 90,000 absolutely equally valid choices, I'm not betting on any one of them. It seems rather foolish to cast the 90,000-sided die on the fate of my soul. I'd rather listen for God to tell me what path is right. And as long as I do everything in my power to listen, I'll hear Him when He talks to me. If He talks to me.

This was my question and my current answer:

quote:

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What sort of power do you attain from the Word of God that is unattainable otherwise?

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I currently think "there isn't any".

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Your response: I don't have a problem with any of your beliefs or opinions. In my opinion India's separation did not happen by divine force. I don't really see how this point has anything to do with what we're talking about. Are you trying to say there is some power you have the ability to tap into that I do not? Are you saying that I cannot tap into the divine force that you believed allowed India's separation? But, it's trivial for me to just say I think I certainly can (and do) tap into the power that I think allowed India's separation. So, how is this useful? If there's no difference between what you can do and what I can do, how is this evidence that there's something you can do that I can't?If what you want to say is that you have the ability to tap into some unlimited resevoir of power and I do not... but then you have no ability to show that you can actually tap into this power while I cannot... I admit I have no rebuttal. But I'd then argue that your point is useless because you cannot show your power anyway, and that anything you do have the ability to show, I can match. Or maybe you're saying... we both have this power but I'm just attributing it to the wrong thing? I'd agree that's certainly possible, but since we cannot verify the source one way or the other, the identification is meaningless. So then, until you can verify that your source is the correct source for both of our powers, I'd ask you to respectfully allow me to have my own equally-unprovable source. I know you wouldn't. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm asking if you can convince me otherwise (and I'm suggesting that the answer is 'no'). I'm wondering if you can give me any rational reason why I should change my mind from "there isn't any." So far, you haven't offered anything reasonable. Simply some musings of your own thoughts. Well, I have my own musings that are equally valid, and they say "there isn't any." I wasn't worried, I'm sorry I came off that way, I attempted to clarify that I was simply curious. I guess I failed. And I agree, places to look are always welcome and sought after.