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Author Topic:   Which Version of the Bible is the Word of God?
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 72 of 174 (498014)
02-07-2009 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Peg
02-06-2009 3:51 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:
Then why would 'inspired' writers of the Bible mention them?
who mentions them?
I`ve already listed the external books in post 62. My question still is -why would writers working under the 'inspiration' of God need to quote uninspired writers?

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 73 of 174 (498015)
02-07-2009 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Peg
02-06-2009 3:50 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
The evidence is in that the Hebrew canon was complete by the fifth century B.C.E.
And that evidence is?
Also, none of the Christian Bible writers quoted from these books.
I think you will find both Jewish and Christian writers quote from the Book of Enoch and Jubilees.
Origen made a distinction between these writings and those of the true canon
Well, Origen certainly didn`t know which was the real OT. That`s why he compiled the Hexapla--six versions.
Jerome is another one who took a stand against such Apocryphal books and he is considered to be the foremost of the ancient scholars
Jerome worked with 'the most corrupt Latin versions' he`d found--The Vetus Latina, and a 'good' greek NT, whatever that means. Oddly, though he had studied under the head of the Byzantine Church 'founded' by Constantine, he never referenced those fabulously-expensive fifty Bibles compiled by Eusebius. Wonder what happened to them?
Edited by Nighttrain, : nasty spell error

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 Message 70 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 3:50 AM Peg has replied

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 76 of 174 (498060)
02-07-2009 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Peg
02-07-2009 8:04 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
do you have some verse's so i can look into it???
Look up Book of Enoch and Book of Jubilees in Wikipedia for an opening guide. After you have digested them, we can pursue it further. If you wish. :-)

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 Message 75 by Peg, posted 02-07-2009 8:04 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 79 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 1:12 AM Nighttrain has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 80 of 174 (498238)
02-09-2009 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Peg
02-09-2009 1:12 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
You still haven`t really answered the question, Peg. If you were a writer under 'Inspiration' (whatever that means), why would you be 'directed' to include uninspired history, poems, whatever? Isn`t God`s message sufficient? Maybe the writers had a bit of spare papyrus and time and said, 'That looks good, I`ll throw that in. Might give me a bit of street cred.'

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 Message 79 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 1:12 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 81 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 6:01 AM Nighttrain has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 83 of 174 (498354)
02-09-2009 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Peg
02-09-2009 6:01 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
it probably depends on the subject your writing about. In the case of Jude, he was warning his readers about results of turning away from God. therein he mentions people in the past who had done this and the consequences of doing so... this is when he mentions Enoch and how God executed judgement on the ungodly back in that time.
He simply is using an existing and well known account as an example. It fits with his subject matter and it fits his purpose as a reminder of what happens when people turn away from God.
So you are saying that the Bible contains writings that are uninspired?

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 Message 81 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 6:01 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 85 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:42 AM Nighttrain has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 91 of 174 (498488)
02-11-2009 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Peg
02-10-2009 3:42 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Also if you look at the Gospel of Luke we see that he used public records to write down the genealogy of Jesus. Now those records of births and deaths were not inspired writings but still Luke used them and it didn't make his writing any less inspired.
So what`s the filter we use to separate 'inspired' writings from 'uninspired'?

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 Message 85 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:42 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 94 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 12:06 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 93 of 174 (498567)
02-11-2009 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by PaulK
02-11-2009 7:05 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
And of course, Luke, who supposedly traveled widely with Paul, never mentions his former companion in GLuke. Maybe there was a surfeit of Lukes around that time?

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 97 of 174 (498717)
02-13-2009 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Peg
02-13-2009 12:24 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Peg, take Josephus with a deal of caution. Apart from a chequered career, he describes mythical creatures as real (can`t recall the critters offhand, PaulK may know), and, while the defending general of Galilee, he failed to note the thousands and thousands of people healed by Jesus a generation or so earlier. Makes the TF and the James reference small potatoes compared to THAT oversight.

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 Message 95 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 12:24 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 100 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-13-2009 8:18 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 102 of 174 (498765)
02-13-2009 5:52 PM


OP or not to OP, that is the question
Here we are round post 100, and still no definitive answer to which is the REAL Version. Can we assume there is no real Version, just muddled collections that contain additions, omissions, conflations and dogma?

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 117 of 174 (499046)
02-16-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peg
02-16-2009 4:40 AM


RE: Which One
The one that Jesus Christ identified in his day.
The Septuagint-LXX? Quotations in the Gospels follow the LXX.
As further evidence of the Old Testament and its division into 3 sections are Josephus's words around the year 100 C.E., where he confirms that by then the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures had been fixed for a long time.
Which was Josephus talking about, the LXX or the Proto-Masoretic?
Well, the Qumran Scrolls say otherwise with a number of versions, so who`s right?
If it was fixed for a long time when Josephus wrote c.95 C.E., why was the vetting process at the Academy at Jamnia necessary c. 100?

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 Message 116 by Peg, posted 02-16-2009 4:40 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 118 of 174 (499047)
02-16-2009 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peg
02-16-2009 4:40 AM


RE: Which One
thereafter, the writings of the Apostles of Christ became the basis for the Christian Greek Scriptures and these books were confirmed as legitimate by the early church fathers.
Which early church father do you want to tackle first?

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