Report discussion problems here: No.2

See ya!

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Paullesq,This is a reply to your Message 14 in the Think bigger think better. thread. Regarding this: I see it differently, that you're finding it difficult getting people to accept inarticulate propositions, but more importantly, here at EvC Forum we try to keep discussion focused strictly on the topic. Complaints about the difficulties involved in persuading people are not part of the topic of the discussion threads, by which I mean the threads in the science category and in the religion category.You can take discussion issues to threads like this one, or raise them in forums like [forum=-14], but I don't believe that complaints that the problem is with your audience will find broad acceptance.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

This is a response to Paullesq's Message 19 in the Think bigger think better. thread where he writes: Focusing just on this portion: Yes, that's correct. That's because I'm moderating, not discussing. It's my job to focus on adherence to the Forum Guidelines and not on the specific technical details of the discussion. It is my judgment that what you're labeling a "call to think deeper" is an off-topic distraction. The obvious and equally inappropriate response is, "No, you're the one not thinking deeply enough," taking the discussion down an off-topic rat hole.I also suggest again that you use dBCodes for quoting.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

You justified your violation of the Forum Guidelines by citing the difficulty of getting people to think more deeply. My assessment that any difficulty you felt you were experiencing was more likely rooted in the ill-defined nature of your ideas was based on a careful reading of all your posts here, as well as a number at a couple other discussion boards. My concerns in this area are supported by rule 4 from the Forum Guidelines

4. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.

If your keyboard works you can use dBCodes. Let me know if you need help.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Taking the lead from studies showing that people tend to remember the items nearest the beginning and end of lists, the most important rules in the Forum Guidelines were made #1 and #10. Probably the 3rd most important guideline is staying on topic.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Just to reinforce what AdminNosy already said, Smooth Operator will be moderated on the basis of his behavior here, not at other sites. He tends toward very brief unsupported statements of his position, but he has also contributed evidence and rationale. Naturally the more he tends toward the former at the expense of the latter it could become a problem, but it isn't possible to predict the future.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I hereby request everyone to please be on their best behavior in the threads in which you're participating, and I'll keep my eye on things. I have my own theory about where the problem lies, but it's based on data from around 7/1, so I'll wait for more recent information.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

The recent discussions between RAZD and Straggler served as a keen demonstration of how easy it is for disagreements to boil out of control into personal accusations and recriminations, so it comes as no surprise how easily this can happen when the differences are even more fundamental.Both RAZD and Straggler felt the other was being dense or was purposefully distorting their position, and I'm seeing a lot of the same types of feelings being expressed with regard to a few recent newcomers. We have to remember that every topic is actually a lot more complex than we think, and that the weight each person attaches to each item of evidence can vary a great deal. It is even possible to discuss for a long time without realizing there's a fundamental difference in understanding that had gone unnoticed.So we should have two goals in discussion here. The obvious goal is to convince someone of our own position, but the other equally important goal is understanding the other person's position, something that can be very difficult. Sometimes you'll find you're right, that the other person's position was completely bogus, but most people won't abandon a position they think is fine, and you likely won't be able to find the flaws in a position you don't understand.AbE: I'm going to amend that last sentence to say something that I think is much more true:You likely won't be able to convince someone of the flaws in their position until you understand it in the same way they do.Edited by Admin, : Add AbE.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi RAZD,The peanut gallery is for spectators to discuss the performance, not for the performers to discuss their performance.All participants in all threads are asked to follow the Forum Guidelines, including rule 10:

10. Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

Here at EvC Forum, members are asked to treat even racists, gay bashers and white supremacists politely and with respect. Let moderators handle any problems. It's on the todo list. Last time I checked I was still only one guy.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

...and anyone else who's frustrated.First, to LindaLou, your tendency in the past has been to carry on through many posts without taking much notice of the substance in what others are saying. I can't tell if this is true in How does one distinguish faith from delusion?, I only read the last couple pages, but even if you prefer not to admit to this tendency I still ask that you try to be cognizant of the possibility.To Theodoric, I can step in and make rulings, but I have a feeling you're not really interested in that since it wasn't you who raised a complaint. Another possibility would be to allow the rhetorical parries being sent your way to challenge you into offering equally effective ripostes. Or to move to a boxing analogy, your arguments may possibly have more punch, but they're being overwhelmed by a flurry of rhetorical (and possibly irrelevant) combinations.Both Jimmy Carter and Rush Limbaugh tell similar growing-up stories of taking one side in formal debate and winning, then switching sides and winning again. Debate is a skill. Each side should, if sufficiently skillful, be able to identify the fallacies from the other side and turn them to their own advantage while still managing to stay on topic. Naturally this requires ignoring the emotional response one gets (or at least I do) when they've just been zinged and to instead respond clearly and logically. We have several good examples of this ability here, I won't embarrass the guilty by naming them.But one thing I must insist upon - please follow rule 10 of the Forum Guidelines, treating others respectfully. I know this places those less skillful or at least less interested in the sly insult at a disadvantage, but such is life.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Whoa! Good catch! Fixing this now...

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Fixed - thanks again!

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

If you click on Admin Posts Only for Living fossils expose evolution you'll see that I explained what I was going to do at each step along the way, finally culminating in warnings like this from Message 321: And this from Message 361: I've been assuming that my messages get read, but maybe not.All suspensions will expire by around 7 AM this morning. I'll seriously consider making any future suspensions in this thread shorter, but of course it will be situational.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

The more times a moderator posts to a thread, the more messages members have to choose from to find something that they think blesses what they want to do anyway, such as your excerpt from Message 370. There was only one suspension after that message, and Archangel posted about many things, but not the topic. The diversion onto PuncEq came before that message, and it would have been fine except that this is a thread out of control, having picked up nearly 400 messages in 5 days.Discussion of PuncEq is fine, but experience tells me that Calypsis won't make the connection to living fossils or the example of bats unless it is made very clear, that without this he'll likely lurch off-topic again. I think it would be a good idea to spell it out. When discussion hits a constructive vein I'll loosen up.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mr Jack,I'm sorry that the moderation seems unpredictable to you. Any posts that somehow tie the arguments back to the main topic of living fossils and the specific focus of bats should be fine. I'm sure we all want a meaningful dialog with Calypsis, but achieving this is proving somewhat challenging. If we all pitch in, meaning all the participants and the moderators, we'll have a better chance.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director