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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 434 of 687 (523330)
09-09-2009 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Sasuke
09-09-2009 11:54 AM


Re: Him
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
However there are some things I can conclude as mythological. Look at history, how many faiths are there? Is it not true that every culture in history has its own faith? So why would anyone in there right mind, knowing that every culture has its own faith that christianity is truth? Come on man be objective don't assume christianity just because you want to. It is not logical to assume a god that you have never SEEN or HEARD or TOUCHED created the universe. Even if there was such a thing, I am sure you could never understand this "being". and speaking of such things, why would this being that has existed for an eternity care about moral character? all Humans live and die for peats sake.. And dont tell me that a biological being could at one time under different circumstances live for an eternity but then because he ate from a tree of good and evil that caused them to live less time or some hog wash.. We are here.. this is our reality.. henceforth, every view must be tested.. There is no absolute truth.. and faith is not science... you should not be looking at scripture to prove your views scientifically because the views of the writers were nothing like the science views of today...
I noticed a couple of things in here I would like to comment on.
Genesis 1:17 tells us God created mankind in His image/likeness. That means we have body, mind, and spirit.
The body will die.
The mind and the spirit are eternal.
In the resurrection everyone will receive a new eternal body.
If biological man evolved from non life he has no spirit and when he dies he dies end of story.
I have heard God and after I heard Him I was able to see Him. I do not expect anyone other than a born again child of God to understand that statement. So no reply is necessary.
Scientific fact: non life can not produce life.
Therefore we did not evolve.
How can people have enough faith to believe that something that has been proven scientifically impossible come to the conclusion God does not exist.
Life exists.
If only life can produce life which is a scientific fact.
Then it is a scientific fact that there is something that has life that beget the life we have today.
ICANT'S position is we have what we have whether the design is good or bad makes no difference, it works.
I choose to call the entity that gave the life we have God.
He did have some things written down in a collection of books to point us in the right direction.
But man from the beginning has been making his own choices.
Just as you make yours and I make mine.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Sasuke, posted 09-09-2009 11:54 AM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Sasuke, posted 09-09-2009 3:51 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 441 of 687 (523380)
09-09-2009 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by JonF
09-09-2009 5:35 PM


Re: Talking about
Hi JonF,
JonF writes:
Both, except it's not "appear to run faster". It does indeed run faster.
{ABE} These are only true only from the point of view of an observer on Earth.
I understand the clock runs faster.
I will rephrase the question.
Does the velocity and gravity cause the pulse to change?
What difference would it make if you were on the satellite with the clock?
JonF writes:
A postulate is an unproven assumption.
You mean like the universe beginning to exist 13.7 BYA.
What happens to time when you exceed the speed of light?
JonF writes:
Why is that answer better than mine?
What is spacetime? Is one of the top 10 unanswered science questions.
That makes your answer your opinion which is OK, everybody has one.
JonF writes:
Still waiting for an explanation.
I never looked at the numbers and still haven't. All I looked at was the picture. You got satellites going in very different directions, even crossing each others path's. All the examples with clocks going in opposite directions keep different time. That is all I was looking at and is what I said.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by JonF, posted 09-09-2009 5:35 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by NosyNed, posted 09-09-2009 9:26 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 459 by JonF, posted 09-10-2009 8:33 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 444 of 687 (523387)
09-09-2009 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Rrhain
09-09-2009 7:11 PM


Genesis Literal Facts
Hi Rrhain,
Rrhain writes:
So for you to insist that "literal Genesis is the best explanation of the facts" requires that the fact that we do not see any flowering plants in the fossil record until long after the rise of insects to be false. It requires that the fossil record showing the evolution of plants over time after the rise of insects to develop structures that exploit pollinators such as insects to be false.
Since you can't remember the literal Genesis facts I will repeat them for you.
In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In the same light period God created man first.
In the same light period God created plants second.
In the same light period God created all animals, creaping things and flying things. third.
The problem with evolution is you don't have life to evolve.
It is a fact life produces life.
It is a fact that non life has never produced life.
There is life on this planet.
Therefore there had to be a lifeform to beget life.
It is a scientific fact life produces life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Rrhain, posted 09-09-2009 7:11 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Coyote, posted 09-09-2009 9:44 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 449 by Sasuke, posted 09-10-2009 1:34 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 450 by Rrhain, posted 09-10-2009 2:36 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 445 of 687 (523389)
09-09-2009 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by NosyNed
09-09-2009 9:26 PM


Re: Time changes
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes:
If you are with the clock it is running perfectly normally.
So I don't make any adjustments to my clock. I take my clock on the satellite into orbit and it will keep perfect time with the clock on the ground.
Is that what you are saying?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by NosyNed, posted 09-09-2009 9:26 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by JonF, posted 09-10-2009 8:38 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 447 of 687 (523399)
09-09-2009 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Coyote
09-09-2009 9:44 PM


Re: Genesis Literal Facts
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes:
This is an assertion, not a documented fact.
There are over 260 humans births per minute in the world.
Those are the offspring of human parents.
I think that alone would prove my assertion as you put it.
Do you have one documented account of non life producing life?
Life produce life whether you like it or not.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Coyote, posted 09-09-2009 9:44 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Coyote, posted 09-09-2009 11:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 453 of 687 (523428)
09-10-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Coyote
09-09-2009 11:32 PM


Re: Genesis Literal Facts
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes:
What human parents do now has no relation to the question of origins. What human parents do now doesn't prove anything about origins several billion years ago! You should be ashamed for even suggesting such a thing! Freshmen in science courses have been failed for less than that.
Is there 1 living creature on planet earth today that was not produced by a life form?
If there is name it and give details of the begining to exist of that creature.
Coyote writes:
Sorry, that doesn't cut it as empirical evidence.
Your rant has nothing to do with whether life begets life.
Does life produce life?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Coyote, posted 09-09-2009 11:32 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2009 8:01 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 487 by Rrhain, posted 09-12-2009 3:06 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 457 of 687 (523432)
09-10-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Sasuke
09-10-2009 1:34 AM


Re: Life from non Life
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
It is not a fact, it is assumed. There has never been any evidence to suggest life can't come from non life.
There was some highly publicised experiments in 1953 with thousands following. Even today labs are busy all over the world trying to produce life. With all our technology in the past 56 years science is no closer to producing life.
Those thousands of experiments stand as testimony that non life can not produce life.
You can find one of those experiments Here
Sasuke writes:
Prove that life can't come from non life.
Why do I have to prove a negative?
Science has been proving it for 150 years.
Louis Pasteur said:
"Never will the doctrine of spontaneous generation recover from the mortal blow struck by this simple experiment" (referring to his swan-neck flask experiment wherein he proved that fermenting microorganisms would not form in a flask containing fermentable juice until an entry path was created for them
Source
Fact #1
For 150 years science has been proving non life can not produce life.
Fact #2
You are living proof that life produces life.
Fact #3 Life produces life.
Conclusion:
Since only life produces life the first life on earth had to be produced by a living life form.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Sasuke, posted 09-10-2009 1:34 AM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Coyote, posted 09-10-2009 11:54 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 462 by Sasuke, posted 09-10-2009 1:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 463 of 687 (523484)
09-10-2009 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by Sasuke
09-10-2009 1:46 PM


Re: Life from non Life
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
I will agree non life can't produce life but that does not make it proven.
When you add over 150 years of trying to produce life from non life by some pretty good scientist it gains weight.
When you consider the last 60 years of that with the best technology available to mankind, science has accomplished a lot.
But alas, no life with the technology we have. So how did it just happen?
You add all that together and it paints a pretty solid picture that you are not going to get life from non life.
To believe you can takes a lot of faith which scientist say they don't have any of.
Sasuke writes:
Neither can all the evidence in the world prove life can only come from life.
All that is necessary is to prove non life can produce life.
Sasuke writes:
In reality there is no reason to think there is a god cept an assumption and as such we know there are natural laws.
A natural law being something that just exists. Why does it exist?
KSasuke writes:
Being as it is, it seems non life can produce life based on that observation alone.
My indian blood say you speak with forked tongue.
You say: I will agree non life can't produce life.
Then you say it seems non life can produce life.
Which is it?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Sasuke, posted 09-10-2009 1:46 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Sasuke, posted 09-10-2009 6:51 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 464 of 687 (523486)
09-10-2009 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Coyote
09-10-2009 11:54 AM


Re: Life from non Life
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes:
I suppose the fact that Edison failed to make a workable filament for his first light bulb--producing thousands of failures--is proof positive that such a filament can't be made, eh? That's the analogy you are making.
No Edison got it right in his generation.
We have had 4 generations and a lot better equiptment than Edison had and have failed to produce life from non life.
To continue to believe you can produce life from non life takes a lot of faith.
But to believe in your evolution you don't have a choice.
Coyote writes:
And none are supported by empirical evidence.
Sure there is unless you can produce life from non life.
Coyote writes:
But from this mish-mash of unsupported beliefs you pull an absolute proof that only life begets life?
So produce another source that begets life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Coyote, posted 09-10-2009 11:54 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Perdition, posted 09-10-2009 5:08 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 468 by Coyote, posted 09-10-2009 5:41 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 466 of 687 (523490)
09-10-2009 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by JonF
09-10-2009 8:38 AM


Re: Time changes
Hi JonF,
JonF writes:
Nope, you will observe the clock on the ground to be running slower than yours. By the exact amount that the observer on Earth thinks your clock is running faster than his. All observers in all possible states of motion agree.
I don't think so.
My clock was the only one that was not adjusted.
Now since I think the ground clock is running slower than mine and the ground clock thinks mine is running faster:
Which clock has the correct time?
From msg 459:
JonF writes:
Oh, come on. Get real. Go read a book.
Special & General Relativity Questions and Answers
If I could put myself in the same point in spacetime where I was yesterday at noon, would it still be yesterday at noon?
Yes...but it would involve time travel and Nature doesn't seem to want to play that game with us.
All answers are provided by Dr. Sten Odenwald (Raytheon STX) for the NASA Astronomy Cafe, part of the NASA Education and Public Outreach program.
Source
JonF writes:
Who says, and why are they right?
Source of the who.
Perhaps readers who are not familiar with the current impossibility of reconciling relativity and quantum theory, may be visiting this site expecting to find an answer to the question "what is space-time?". Alas, there is no answer, at least not for now, and maybe never. At the University of Michigan's Strings 2000 seminar the participants proposed a list of the ten most important unsolved problems in fundamental physics. Number 5 was - "Why does the universe appear to have one time and three space dimensions?" In other words, what are space and time, and what is the strange combination of Space and Time that is the Spacetime Continuum?
Who got the Pulitzer Prize for answering that question?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by JonF, posted 09-10-2009 8:38 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Perdition, posted 09-10-2009 5:39 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 470 by cavediver, posted 09-10-2009 6:14 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 477 by JonF, posted 09-10-2009 9:38 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 469 of 687 (523493)
09-10-2009 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Perdition
09-10-2009 5:08 PM


Re: Life from non Life
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes:
We're also operating in conditions very different from those in which life originated and have the added difficulty of making sure current life doesn't contaminate our experiment.
To actually prove abiogenesis happened as put forth it would be necessary to recreate the conditions on earth at the time life appeared and then without any intervention by man life appear.
That would be indisputable scientific evidence.
At 70 I don't think I will be around for that event. I will already have all the answers.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Perdition, posted 09-10-2009 5:08 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by Perdition, posted 09-11-2009 11:34 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 472 of 687 (523510)
09-10-2009 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Sasuke
09-10-2009 6:51 PM


Re: Evidence God produced Life
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
Bravo! Still don't prove it.
Maybe not, but it sure raises reasonable doubt.
And in my case that is in the 99.999 range.
ICANT'S position on abiogenesis (life from non life) It didn't happen.
Sasuke writes:
Impossible to prove either way.
Why?
Sasuke writes:
Why wouldn't it exist? It just does and the fact that it does is evidence that life came from non life.
The fact that a law exists requires that there be a law giver.
Sasuke writes:
I think either is plausible.
I can accept that you believe that.
Just don't expect me to believe it.
Everybody keeps talking about following the evidence.
It is a proven fact life produces life and is confirmed 264 times a minute in the world by human births alone.
After 150 years and the best equiptment available man can not produce life in the best of conditions. But I am expected to believe it just happened in the wild all by itself. Therefore non life can not produce life.
Evidence:
Fact #1 Life produces life.
Fact #2 Non life produces no life.
Fact #3 Life exists on earth.
For life to exist on earth life had to produce that life.
I would call whatever lifeform produced that life God.
Following the evidence:
Therefore ICANT'S position is that God created life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Sasuke, posted 09-10-2009 6:51 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by DrJones*, posted 09-10-2009 8:58 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 474 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-10-2009 9:00 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 480 by Sasuke, posted 09-11-2009 12:32 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 475 of 687 (523520)
09-10-2009 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by cavediver
09-10-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Time changes
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
I can't begin to imagine how anyone who thinks that they are sufficiently informed to report on the annual Strings conference, can draw such an inept conclusion.
You can find the information Here.
These are the 10 questions and presenters.
Here are the problems:
1. Are all the (measurable) dimensionless parameters that characterize the physical universe calculable in principle or are some merely determined by historical or quantum mechanical accident and uncalculable?
David Gross, Institute for Theoretical Physics, University of California, Santa Barbara
2. How can quantum gravity help explain the origin of the universe?
Edward Witten, California Institute of Technology and Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton
3. What is the lifetime of the proton and how do we understand it?
Steve Gubser, Princeton University and California Institute of Technology
4. Is Nature supersymmetric, and if so, how is supersymmetry broken?
Sergio Ferrara, CERN (European Laboratory of Particle Physics)
Gordon Kane, University of Michigan
5. Why does the universe appear to have one time and three space dimensions?
Shamit Kachru, University of California, Berkeley
Sunil Mukhi, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research
Hiroshi Ooguri, California Institute of Technology
6. Why does the cosmological constant have the value that it has, is it zero and is it really constant?
Andrew Chamblin, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Renata Kallosh, Stanford University
7. What are the fundamental degrees of freedom of M-theory (the theory whose low-energy limit is eleven-dimensional supergravity and which subsumes the five consistent superstring theories) and does the theory describe Nature?
Louise Dolan, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Annamaria Sinkovics, Spinoza Institute
Billy & Linda Rose, San Antonio College
8. What is the resolution of the black hole information paradox?
Tibra Ali, Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics, Cambridge
Samir Mathur, Ohio State University
9. What physics explains the enormous disparity between the gravitational scale and the typical mass scale of the elementary particles?
Matt Strassler, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton
10 Can we quantitatively understand quark and gluon confinement in Quantum Chromodynamics and the existence of a mass gap?
Igor Klebanov, Princeton University
Oyvind Tafjord, McGill University
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by cavediver, posted 09-10-2009 6:14 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by JonF, posted 09-10-2009 9:43 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 476 of 687 (523525)
09-10-2009 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Minnemooseus
09-10-2009 9:00 PM


Re: Evidence God produced Life
Hi Moose,
Minnemooseus writes:
Besides, others have pointed out Biblical scripture that God created man "from the dust of the Earth". There you have it - life from nonlife.
Slight correction is needed there Moose.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man was formed from the dust of the ground but God breathed the breath of life into him.
Life was breathed by life into man.
Moose writes:
Are you to say you're certain of God's methodology?
Nothing is certain where man has been involved.
God could have done anything, anyway He desired He is God.
The record we have is that He formed them and then gave them life. The details are not complete.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-10-2009 9:00 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 479 of 687 (523531)
09-10-2009 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by JonF
09-10-2009 9:38 PM


Re: Time changes
Hi JonF,
JonF writes:
You think wrong. It's been experimentally demonstrated over and over again in lot of varied, clever, and independent ways. For example, if you were right GPS would not work. But GPS works. Therefore&hellips;
You will have to be a little more specific for me to understand how they can work.
The clocks that are flying have been set to the ground clock.
All those clocks are in sync.
I said my clock had not been adjusted to run with the ground clock.
In fact it is the same as the ground clock.
Therefore the ground clock will see it running faster as will all the other satellite clocks.
My clock will see all those clocks runninc slower.
My clock has not been altered from ground conditions therefore the pulse rate has been changed by velocity and gravity.
Since the pulse rate of the atom has been altered it is not measuring duration properly as it is pulsing at less than a second.
So my clock and the ground clock can not both be correct.
One of them is wrong.
JonF writes:
You asked what happens to time when you travel faster than light. I tried to hint that you may have heard "you can't go faster than light" at some time in your life. Your response is irrelevant.
If I understand what I read relativity says time stops when you reach the speed of light. If you can exceed the speed of light time will then run backwards and you will be traveling in time.
That is how you would go back to where you were yesterday at noon. All kinds of proposals have been put forth to accomplish that goal.
But then we come to Godels postulate that if time did not pass it would be no time at all.
JonF writes:
I don't know. Certainly not Paul Stewart Snyder, the author of that page. Who did?
It hasn't been awarded as the question has not been answered yet. It seems when the quantum gravity theory is worked out time will disappear.
Then we would be back to existence with time a concept of man to measure duration.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by JonF, posted 09-10-2009 9:38 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by greyseal, posted 09-11-2009 7:20 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 482 by JonF, posted 09-11-2009 8:49 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 483 by Modulous, posted 09-11-2009 9:21 AM ICANT has replied

  
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