'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

Jay,For some strange reason, you think bc it states:"AFTER six days ..." (Matthew 17:1)
"AFTER six days ..." (Mark 9:2)
"And about eight days AFTER ..." (Luke 9:28)...that it must mean the words of Jesus in Matthew 27 refer to the Transfiguration. A time frame is being given. Just like it states how many days before Passover, which is when his death occured.I have said this many times, you pick and choose what scripture you want to use, you bounce around grabbing verses out of context....while ignoring the entire time what the context actually states.I have shown you EVERY time "coming on clouds" is used it refers to the return of Jesus.I asked if the high priest witnesses the transfiguration? Jesus clearly states to him he shall see Jesus coming on clouds.You have presented no evidence at all that the Transfiguration is beign referenced by Matthew 16:27. None.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But you missed the crucial point. NONE DIED. This is actually frightening. Jesus is speaking to those in front of him and SPECIFICALLY states that some will die before they see Jesus coming in his kingdom. Yet you keep stating the events are linked when NONE died! No matter how you twist it, Jesus states:One or more of those standing in front of me will be dead before they see Jesus coming in his kingdom.Yet none died. This is crucial. It cannot be the transfiguration. Yeah, in an apologetic court of law! Again, Jesus gives three specifics in Matthew 27. You need it to refer to the Transfiguration.ALL THREE of those specifics did not come to pass.Angels did not appear.
Those standing there did not die.
Mankind was not rewarded. Of course they have to be! Some standing there will not be alive to witness this event! All were for the transfiguration. Remember Jay, context.Back up a lil.21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.Jesus starts to preach about his death.24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life[h] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?Jesus is now talking about saving ones soul.Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."The context is Jesus is to die, save mans souls, and reward mankind when he returns.Your version is that Jesus is to die, save mans soul then shifts the story to the transfiguration. It does not make sense and destroys the flow the story. Its out of context.Simple question:When Jesus returns, will he:1) Come with angels?
2) Will some of his disciples be dead before he returns?
3) Will he reward mankind?

Jay, the problem with our debate so far, is that we're bouncing all around. I have given quite a few verses throughout the gospels, in no particular order. You're defending your stance by jumping around. So it tends to get confusing.Lets try this in order.Matthew 10:15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.Does this refer to the end times? If no, explain why.Thanks.

Does this refer to the end times (refering back to Matthew 10)? If no, explain why. You lost me. So you're saying bc of the disicples, Jesus did not return? If that is the case, then the Bible is wrong. You're giving a reason as to why...then saying its not a mistake bc there is a "valid" reason.You admit it refers to the end times, then gloss over it. Do you see your error?Jesus tells his followers to go from town to town. He tells them in some places they will be welcomed and in others they will have to flee. He then proceeds to tell them before they can go through all the towns, he (Jesus) will return. You're ignoring the context again. Jesus is telling them to preach from one town to the next and then adds:23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.The context is that before they can complete their task, Jesus will return.You're making the story to say the disciples will not do as Jesus states, so they didnt go through all the towns, they're now dead and since they couldnt go through all their towns, Jesus can return at any time.You're butchering the entire context to save an obvious problem. Do I believe he said he would rise from the dead? Not sure. I believe a man named Jesus existed. I believe in many instances he may have said something similiar (the authors were not present)...but as to which statements, I do not know. What I do believe is that there are many who are so scared of death that they have convinced themselves that the Bible is true.
The concept of dying and never "existing" again is too much to bear, so heaven is needed. There are many error and absurdities in the gospels. This thread dealt with one obvious aspect. Its a debate site. So I debated.

If that is the case, then the Bible is wrong. You're giving a reason as to why...then saying its not a mistake bc there is a "valid" reason. Jean Dixon and Nostradamus did not predict anything. Both have been shown over and over to make broad statements or have their statements taken out of context to make it seem like predictions to fit events.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Jay writes:
If verse 23 was a promise that Jesus would have His second coming in a few months or years, then if it did not happen, the disciples must have not adaquately held up their end of the arrangement.
You're ignoring the context again. Jesus is telling them to preach from one town to the next and then adds:23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. I do not expect you to agree with me on any points actually. If you did, the Bible would collapse. I realize you cannot have that. Jesus could state he would return in 1 year exactly and apologists would change the meaning of "year". Its how Bible errors are corrected all the time. Any mistake can be "altered" to make the problem disappear.------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jay, you have in inherent bias, I do not. You need the Bible to be true. You cannot have Jesus be wrong. It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking what Jesus is saying. In fact, i would love to know after death, "life" goes on. That I would meet my family and friends again. But unlike you, I base my beliefs upon evidence.I am going by context and what Jesus actually spoke. I am debating as if Jesus said every single word attributed to him, regardless if I believe those are his words are not. Its all about context. To give an example:The prophecy of Tyre. Its an utter failure. It specifically states Nebakanezer would destroy Tyre. Apologists realize it was a false prophecy, but since god does not lie according to them, the context must be demolished and rebuilt to salvage the dilemma.You're doing the same with the scripture at hand. I am not the one with the jaded view, you are. Its obvious based upon Matthew 10 that Jesus was relaying that his return was imminent. He told his followers to go from town to town throughout Israel, but before they could complete their task, Jesus would return. There are hundreds. But as I stated earlier, any contradiction can be explained away if one is willing to add/delete/ignore the context.We are way off topic again. Back to Matthew. We know from Matthew 16 that Jesus said the "time is near" and that his disciples were to preach his message but they would not be able to go through all the towns before he returns.Both indicate that time frame. Moving foward, Matthew 16:27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."Jesus is speaking to those standing in front of him. Im sorry Jay, but this cannot be the transfiguration for the simple fact, none died. Please also tell me, using scripture, not your own beliefs, what is states about Jesus returning with his angels. What is to occur?Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.Does this refer to Jesus returning? Yes or no?

Jay, quite a few hours ago I responded to your last post to me. It was quite in length. Yet now, I cannot seem to find it. I sent it. Apparently, its lost in limbo somewhere. My apologies.Instead of going over the entire post again, just two quick points.Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. Where does it say all the Jewish tribes? Also, are you admitting that it refers to his return?Matthew 16:28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man at the transfiguration.Now, please explain who died before they could see this event.Again, sorry again that my post disappeared. I just do not have the time now to go over them all again.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jay, quite a few hours ago I responded to your last post to me. It was quite in length. Yet now, I cannot seem to find it. I sent it. Apparently, its lost in limbo somewhere. My apologies.
Instead of going over the entire post again, just two quick points. That sucks.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
Jay writes:
"All the tribes of the land" meaning the Jewish tribes living in the Holy Land to which Christ will descend.Where does it say all the Jewish tribes? Also, are you admitting that it refers to his return? Ok, it does seem to fit. Its a moot point, but I just was not sure where you grabbed that idea from.You didnt answer my question though. Are you admitting it refers to his return?----------------------------------------------------------------------------Matthew 16:28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man at the transfiguration. I paraphrased. Thats exactly as how you said it should read. You stated over and over that it refers to the transfiguration. If that is the case, then the way I quoted it is 100% accurate. Yeah, I paraphrased....but you equated "coming into his kingdom" with the transfiguration.--------------------------------------------------------------------------Now, please explain who died before they could see this event. You left out the crucial parts.16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."[a] 18We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.Nowhere in this scripture does it state the "coming" was the transfiguration. What it does state though is that he received glory from god. You're misreading it.Notice the key word: BUT. In other words, Peter is stating the stories of the power and return of Jesus are true NOT bc he has returned BUT because they were on the mountain and god spoke about the greatness of Jesus. In other words, god himself is the evidence! God is speaking! 2 Peter only confirms that he was on the mountain when god spoke about Jesus.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Since you believe its the transfiguration, Jesus said someone standing in front of him would die before the transfiguration.Who died? Its a simple question. LMAO! In other words, you're ignoring the words of Jesus.No one died. So it cannot refer to the transfiguration. Its either that or its a mistake.You're only glossing over the error!If Jesus is refering to the transfiguration, which of his disciples died? Even worse, as I stated, there are THREE criteria. The transfiguration misses all three.None of his disciples died.
The transfiguration did not have angels present.
Mankind was not rewarded.Let me ask you this:If Jesus was to return 40 years later:Would some of his disciples have died?
Does Revelation confirm when he returns it will be with angels?
Does Revelation and Matthew 25 confirm that when he returns he will reward men?

Jay,You last post, the paste job...did exactly what you have done. Ignored the issue. First, its NOT generaly understood to refer to the transfiguration. Apologists claim it does bc of the problems associated with it. Second, nowhere is the actual problems addressed.No one died. The transfiguration did not have angels. Mankind was not rewarded.So I'm not exactly sure what you point was with the past job. Miller is an apologist. Of course he has to state it refers to the transfiguration.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------You didnt answer my question though. Are you admitting it refers to his return?Revelation 1:17 speaks of Christ coming on the clouds. This should be the visible descent of Christ at the end of the great tribulation. It is very frustrating debating you Jay bc you never actually seem to address key issues. You gloss over them. You also play games.We both know Revelation is not refering to the transfiguration. You admit it refers to Jesus DESCENDING to the tribes of Israel.Yet when I ask you point blank if this refers to his return, you cannot actually answer the question.Jay, does it refer to the return of Jesus? Yes or no?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Matthew 16:28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man at the transfiguration. I paraphrased. Thats exactly as how you said it should read. You misunderstood me. You claimed the "son of man coming in his kingdom" IS the transfiguration.I only switched out the wording. I substituted the "son of man coming in his kingdom" with "the transfiguration.You claimed they were one and the same.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Holy geez! Jay, you said Matthew 16 refers to the transfiguration! Not me, YOU!I said over and over, with evidence, it cannot. You claimed over and over it does.If Matthew 16:28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." refers to the transfiguration...then paraphrasing it is 100% accurate! What arent you understanding? This is YOUR argument.If "coming in his kingdom" does not refer to the transfiguration, then you're contradicting yourself.YOU made the claim.I only put it as I did, to make in more concrete, to show you the absurdity of the statement.Matthew 16:28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the transfiguration.My statement is 100% accurate according to what you have been stated. But grew tired of the word semantics you throw around, so I simplified it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------You stated over and over that it refers to the transfiguration. You truly lost me. I am not the one claiming its the interpretation, YOU are! Your entire argument is that it refers to the transfiguration.I seriously hope you're not taking verse 27 to mean the transfiguration, then seperating verse 28 to mean something else. You're obliterating the context.Make up your mind Jay.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You truly have lost me. I have asked so many questions that you have bounced around that I tried to make it as simple as possible. Nothing I have done is a trick or dishonest. YOU told me over and over that scripture in Matthew 16 we are debating refers to the transfiguration.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I'm correct. You're plaing apologetics and butchering the context. You're taking verse 27, seperating it from verse 28.Pete makes no such claim that there were eyewitnesses to the coming of Jesus. None. In fact, EVERY instance of Peter using "coming" refers to the event which has NOT happened yet.1 Peter 1:5
who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time."Coming" as in Jesus has not returned yet.2 Peter 1:16
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.Peter again states the "coming" has not occured yet BUT he has see the majesty of Jesus.2 Peter 3:4
They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."Again, the "coming" refers to a future event.2 Peter 3:12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat."Coming" again refers to an event that has not occured yet.------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I see what you are saying. I read it another way. Both our interpretations seem to go either way. The problem, is that using other verses in Peter, he makes it clear the "coming" has NOT happened yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bc it was eight days later! Those words are vital! They're important. But they do not have to do with the transfiguration.
I keep asking repeatedly where were the angels? Where was mankind rewarded? Who died? You cannot answer a single affirmative to any of those occuring at the transfiguration!Its crazy to even think it refers to it. Look at the context:Jeuss states: He will die. He will be resurrected. He will save souls. Angels will appear. Mankind will be rewarded. Some standing here will die before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.CONTEXT. One follows the other. By throwing the transfiguration in there, it obliterates the context.This is why I keep harping on Revelation! It clearly states Jesus will return WITH his angels. To REWARD mankind. That he is COMING on clouds.COMING always refers to the return of Jesus.Jay, I "laughed" bc we are having a debate, I point out an obvious problem....and your response is basically you dont care!Its a crucial issue and your solution is to ignore it.I was trying to take this step by step, but you're ignoring so many key issues...I have to jump ahead.FACT: Jesus will return on clouds as per Revelation.EVERY instance of "coming on clouds" in the gospels refers to the return of Jesus.If you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it. If not, then I'm going to show you how it all ties together.

Matthew 25: 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Jay, does this refer to the end times, when Jesus returns?

No one died. The transfiguration did not have angels. Mankind was not rewarded. Jay, I'm not twisting anything. You are. In fact, you are misreading it on purpose. If I said you can eat the pizza, have SOME of the slices....everyone, including yourself knows this means you are not to eat all the pie. If I said, here is 10 bucks, I want SOME of the money back, everyone, including yourself knows this means not all of the money wikll be spent.Jesus says SOME standing here, which means SOME will die.
In no other instance, would you ever use the excuse that SOME means everyone outside of this debate. It would never happen. Why? Bc thats not how it reads.SOME standing here shall not taste death....means 100% that not everyone will live.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See, thats poor thinking. You have priorites...I dont. I have only what the scripture states. Your priority is to have an error free gospel. It matters not to me if its error free or not. The point is, we should be basing our debate upon what scripture states, not what we want it state.
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You didnt answer my question though. Are you admitting it refers to his return? This is why it gets frustrating debating with you. You seldom DIRECTLY answer a question.In message 202, I asked you "yes or no" if Revelation speaks of his return.In post 203, you answered that "it could reads as "tribes" across the land"So you didnt answer my question.In 214 I asked the same question again.In 215 you addressed it without answering the question again.In post 217 I asked it again. Same question: Yes or No?In 219 you stated you answered me. Where? You are very difficult to have a conversation with. I have states numerous times you bounce around, create strawman arguments and give half answers.Show me where you answered me question.In Revelation 1:7 does it refer to the return of Jesus, YES or NO?I wanted to answer all your posts...but I have to run and take my daughter to "acting" lessons. Then son baseball, then back to her for soccer.So be patient. Let me address your points before you respond.Thanks!

Jay, does this refer to the end times, when Jesus returns? First, the answer is then a yes. It does refer to his second coming. I am not focusing on the "when", just if it refers to his second coming. We are in agreement then.Second, the apostle Peter, as I have shown, clearly says the "coming" refers to the second coming. I have already given the scripture on this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I find it amusing that you have stated you want to know what Peter said about the transfiguration, when in fact its universally agree upon by Bible scholars (not apologists, big difference) that 2 Peter is a forgery. But lets assume that it is the words of Peter.Here are the verses again which refer to the second coming:1 Peter 1:5
who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time."Coming" as in Jesus has not returned yet.2 Peter 1:16
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.Again, he tells his audience Jesus will return.2 Peter 3:4
They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."Again, the "coming" refers to a future event.2 Peter 3:12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.Now, you think I'm out of line to state 2 Peter 1:16 is about the second coming....so I went to a Christian site. They agree with me.http://www.preteristarchive.com/..._Second/2peter_01-16.htmlExactly as I said. Peter is refering to the second coming, but states he was witness to the power of Jesus himself already.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So again, you're obliterating the context. "Coming" never once is shown to refer to anything but the second coming. The wording used describes EXACTLY how Jesus is to arrive per Revelation and Matthew 25, with angels, rewarding mankind. Neither occured during the transfiguration. None died before the transfiguration.Sorry Jay, you're not being honest. You can twist it all you want, ALL THREE never occured during the transfiguration.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally! We are making progress. So what do we know about Revelation?That Jesus will arrive with his angels at the second coming!What else does he say?Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.So you admit it refers to his second coming.....and how shall he arrive? On clouds!What does Matthew also state, in chapter 26?64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."The kicker is that he is talking to the high priest and the council! Notice Jesus states YOU will see him.Revelation 20: The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.Revelation 22: 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Now go back to Matthew 16: 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.It backs it up perfectly! Jesus not only admits he is coming SOON, but with angels to reward mankind!Jay, there isnt a single verse in the entire NT that states Jesus is returning far in the future.Even Mark 14 states that Jesus told the high priest HE will witness the return of Jesus on clouds.Jumping back to Matthew 24, since you were saying "when" earlier, Jesus gives the signs for the end times. He then states:29"IMMEDIATELY after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]Notice, a time frame is given! Please do not tell me IMMEDIATELY means 2000 years later!30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.At what time? IMMEDIATELY after the signs! When were those signs to arrive? Jesus states to his disciples: YOU, over and over.

Truth? The truth is that I stated MOST Biblical scholars state that 2 Peter is a forgery. Your opening past job actually states that.Also, what truth do you refer to? You have not presented any evidence, nor has Jay in refuting what I have posted.Its quite simple. Jesus (or the authors words) made it quite clear he was to return during their liftime or soon after. Its only through apologetics can you "solve" this serious problem. In other words, twisting what scripture states.Feel free to present any evidence that Jesus preached the end times were to arrive 2000 plus years in the future. If you wish to believe "near", "close at hand","around the corner" mean far, far away, so be it. If you want to twist the context, so that when Jesus tells his disciples and the high priest "you" to mean those thousands of years later, what can I do?The NT is quite clear. The end times were during their generation.Take care.

No time frame is given using just said scripture. Using the rest of Matthew 24, as well, as 16,25 and 26, the time frame IS given.In fact, lets back up a little bit.34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.THIS GENERATION refers to the one Jesus is describing in Matthew 24. In this chapter, Jesus clearly states he is refering to his disciples when he states "you" multiple times. Its their time frame.Also, Matthew 24:35 is a repeat of Matthew 5:18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.In other words, once heaven and earth disappear.....So a time is not given based upon either Matthew 5 or 24, just that once it occurs, the end times THEN his words will disappear.

More scripture to show the end times were 2000 years ago.1 John 2:18: Children, it is the last hour! As you have heard that antichrist is coming,
so now many antichrists have come. From this we know that it is the last hour.Again, the descriptive wording to show it was not to occur thousands of years later...."the last hour".Hebrews 1:2: but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.."Last days"....1 Cor 7:29: I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on,
let even those who have wives be as though they had none,

No time frame is given using just said scripture. Using the rest of Matthew 24, as well, as 16,25 and 26, the time frame IS given. Correct, but you're not exactly giving a time frame.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, lets back up a little bit.
34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Yep. However long that generation exists....which Jesus states isnt that long.
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In this chapter, Jesus clearly states he is refering to his disciples when he states "you" multiple times. Its their time frame. Nope. Your opinion isnt backed up with any facts. In fact, you're ignoring what is stated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus is speaking directly to his disciples. The "you" would have to include them. But yes, it could refer to those also in the future. You're ignoring the crucial verses though.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Except Jesus clearly lays out the time frame. If none was given naturally it would apply to Christians today. You're still ignoring the key verses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you always debate with someone as if they're in the third person? Anyway, again you're correct, Jesus tells his disciples they do not know the day he will return.Your post contained a ton of words stating we should trust the words of Jesus....yet you completely ignored the words of Jesus. You pick and choose what you want to follow to keep your faith alive.Some simple questions.Who is Jesus speaking to?20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again.Now, we both know the answer to that, but I want to hear you admit it.29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,The "immediately" refers back to "those days"."Those days" refers back to those taking flight. You've already answered by now who those are taking flight.....Does "immediately" mean right away of thousands of years later.Now be honest Jay.Before answering, please allow me to get to your next response. I have not read it yet, running off to work.Talk to you later. Thanks.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Wow. Tons of stuff to go over.Jay, I quickly read over all your latest posts. All follow the same format. You twist the meanings of words, you ignore context and you create so many moot points....it makes your posts needlessly long.Only an apologist can take "near" to mean far. "Close by" to mean far off. "Around the corner" to mean many blocks away. "Soon" to mean slowly Every word used to describe the return of Jesus the defintion means the opposite of far away. Every single word. Jesus never once states it far off. Never. Every word he uses to describe (as well as othe authors) states it coming during their lifetime. Every single time.When Jesus is speaking to someone and states "you"....suddenly it no longer means that person...it refers to someone far off in the future.When Jesus states "some of you" in reference to those standing there will die before he returns, in now means "no one". Jay, tell me, between the two of us, whos being honest here? Have I changed any meanings of any words whatsover?If I said, X will occur quickly....you would not assume ever, nor would anyone else its thousands of years later.If I said my father is around the corner, would you believe I meant he was in another country?If I said the town is nearby, would you think I meant it was four states over?Of course not. Yet when the terminology used by Jesus easily shows right away, the meanings of the words change. The mean the exact opposite.This is apologetics at its best (worst?).---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Finally! We are making progress. So what do we know about Revelation? This has no bearing upon our debate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate. We are not discussing if Jesus did it faithfully or not. His promise is to return. We are debating the "when".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This has no bearing upon our debate. I have shown you that EVERY time Jesus states "coming on/with clouds" refers to his second coming. We are not discussing the word "coming". We are discussing "coming on/with clouds" Big difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate. It matters not the stages. Jesus makes it quite clear when discussing his "coming" in the gospels that he will be seen. Be it the first part, the second, the third. It matters not. Jesus makes it clear he will return. His return will bring signs. His return will be seen.By who?Those in that time frame.Jay, you're doing it again. You're bouncing around, giving scripture which has nothing to do with the scripture I brought to the table. This is why I keep asking you to focus on the scripture given.Nothing you have states so far has any bearing on what I have stated. Nothing. Yes, Jesus did state the EXACT hour was not known, but he also states his disciples and the high priest would witness the event.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What else does he say?
Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. It also corresponds with Matthew 16: 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."Coming with his angels, rewarding each person....this refers to his return. So does verse 28. SOME standing here...means some will die. First, it therefore cannot refer to the transfiguration. Second, IN CONTEXT, its still refering to the end times.Which means Jesus once again is stating his return is during some of his disciples lives.Jesus like when Jesus told his disciples to preach from town to town and that they cannot make it to the last town before he returns...IN CONTEXT, common sense, Jesus is stating his return is soon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate. We are not discussing the exact time, but a time frame.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you admit it refers to his second coming.....and how shall he arrive? On clouds! Jay, show me one verse which uses "coming with/on clouds" that does not refer to his return. Just one.Notice how I back up everything I state? Notice how you keep bouncing around and never seem to address anything head on? Those that you do, you twist the context/meaning of the words.I use what scripture states. I use the context. You use neither.
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I deleted some of your post, bc you're preaching again. Instead of addressing the key issues, you use your opinion as to why I have my viewpoint, instead of presenting any evidence. So far in this entire post, you have no evidence to support your claim.We are discussign the "when". We are discussing who shall be witness to his return....those two thousand years ago or those today or the future. You have yet to actually give any scripture which states its far in the future. You have given plenty on what it will look like, but nothing on a time frame. You havent even disputed anything regarding a time frame of two thousand years ago.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does Matthew also state, in chapter 26?
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." More preaching, but not addressing the issue. More preaching, but not addressing the issue. This has no bearing upon our debate. Sheesh Jay, can you ever stay on course???? This has no bearing upon our debate. We are not disussing his first arrival, we are debating the end times.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The kicker is that he is talking to the high priest and the council! Notice Jesus states YOU will see him. And there you have it! Simple apologetics! I was waiting for you to say that! Bc Jesus does not say that! You want god to NOT be the author of confusion, then you make the Bible as confusing as possible.Jesus tells the high priest he will see him on clouds returning. NEVER does Jesus say he would be in Hades, dead. Nothing even infers this.Tell me Jay, where does it say that? If it does not say it, you're adding it. This is exactly why apologetics will never lose an argument. You can make up anything you desire to make it work.Near=Far. Nearby=Faraway. Soon=not soon. Close=not close. Immediately=Slowly.Try debating a Muslim fundamentalist. You could not produce on error in the entire Quran. Not one. Wanna know why? Bc they use apologetics. No matter what is actually stated, just make up something!Its amazing that you keep critisizing me, yet its YOU who keeps inventing solutions not backed by scripture.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Produce evidence thats what Jesus was refering to. You cannot You're inventing a solution without a shred of evidence.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Revelation 22: 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Here again we have this matter soon. Which again, has no bearing upon our debate. The fact remains, Jesus once again states he is coming soon. Not far off in the future.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Now go back to Matthew 16: 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. This has no bearing upon our debate. The fact remains Jesus states he is coming with his angels. THEN he shall reward every man. It matters not how many times he rewards man. What does matter is that that he shall return with his angels...which is the end times.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------It backs it up perfectly! Jesus not only admits he is coming SOON, but with angels to reward mankind! This has no bearing upon our debate. I dont believe and have had a wonderful life.Jay, I'm serious. I enjoy debating. But I cannot sit here typing for over an hour when you're not actually debating anything. So far, 90% of your post could have been discarded. The other ten percent you dont even use evidence, you just give an apologetic excuse. PLEASE, stop preaching and just focus on what the key issues are. How many times now have I stated your viewpoint has no bearing upon our debate. I dont care how wonderful the lives of Christians are. Muslims and other religions could make the same claim! It has NOTHING to do with our debate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate. Jesus is refering to his return each and every time I have presented "soon", "nearby',"around the corner" etcIn fact, all your verse states is that after we die, we are judged. No time frame is given. This is ANOTHER moot point.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nope. Every instance I used refers to his return. There isnt any "moral" sense to it. Its his arrival. Plain and simple.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay, there isnt a single verse in the entire NT that states Jesus is returning far in the future. This has no bearing upon our debate. The future is one second after his point. EVERY verse of course is the future. But as usual, you didnt address what I stated. I said FAR in the future. Every verse the authors use is CLOSE.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nope. Im using scripture. YOU'RE the one who is dictating time. I have changed nothing. I have assume nothing. EVERY word I have used dictates his disciples would be witnesses and he is returning soon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------I deleted more preaching on your part.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jumping back to Matthew 24, since you were saying "when" earlier, Jesus gives the signs for the end times. He then states:
29"IMMEDIATELY after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]Notice, a time frame is given! Please do not tell me IMMEDIATELY means 2000 years later! Most of this is a moot point. But I will address one issue since you FINALLY showed some evidence for your claims. Except, its the wrong evidence.Yes, there will be calamties. Natural ones, supernatural ones. Except as usual, you missed the key issue!What is IMMEDIATELY refering to?It refers to: 15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electif that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.In other words AFTER the disciples witness everything during THEIR lifetime....yes its their lifetime, then IMMEDIATELY further signs will be upon them! Reread it Jay!They will witness the desolation. They will run for the hills.The distress will be NOTHING like the world has ever seen!Jesus is refering to the end times! NOTHING since the beginning of the earth can compare to this event! In other words, the cataclysmic end times are already starting! His discples will be witness to it!What happens when this occurs? IMMEDIATELY after this event:29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]30"At that timeSo IMMEDIATELY after the start of the end times, when everything comes crashing down.....NOT FAR OFF, IMMEDIATELY......the sun and moon will be darkened, the heavens will shake!Then what occurs?the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.I deleted the rest of your preaching...............Jay, the only way you can make this work is by ignoring the context, ignoring the "you", changing the meanings of words.....I would love to keep this friendly debat going...but I cannot type for over and hour each time, when most of your posts are nothing but preaching, speaking to people reading our debate and throwing in scripture which doesnt address anyting I bring up.Please, SHORTEN your posts. Focus on the issues presented. Nearly your entire post has NOTHING to do with our debate.If you want to continue, please, let me know. But please, stop your strawman arguments.How many times have I tried to keep things simple by asking a yes or no question...and you go on for about 500 words????In your entire diatribe you offered ZERO evidence on any of the scirpture I presented.Let me know if you wish to continue. If so, please let me get to your other posts first. Then when you respond to this one, do NOT address every statement I made. I think there is only two key points in the entire post.ThanksEdited by hERICtic, : No reason given.