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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I would love to continue this discussion with you, I see you have already made some good points and I really enjoy a good debate. Unfortunately I have too much self esteem to put myself through the rudeness of your peers on this site. This site should be better moderated to encourage good discussion. One alternative is a Great Debate thread -- two people debate a topic, other people participate through messaging or a peanut gallery thread. See The Great Debate forum for some existing debates. If you want I can set it up. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... lake Suigetsu is brackish, connected to a salt water lake. Tides affect its salinity, due obtaining its salinity through the adjacent tide effected Lake Kugushi, and salinity has a direct bearing on the population of diatoms (it kills them). Logically there would be a spring tide/diacom population relationship through the brackishness of the lake coming from the high tides of the salt water Lake Kugushi. Lake Suigetsu - Wikipedia
quote: Oops -- no brackish sea water flushing.
quote: Looks like I may need to update this section when the next version is made.
A Complete Terrestrial Radiocarbon Record for 11.2 to 52.8 kyr B.P.Christopher Bronk Ramsey1,*, Richard A. Staff1, Charlotte L. Bryant2, Fiona Brock1, Hiroyuki Kitagawa3, Johannes van der Plicht4,5, Gordon Schlolaut6, Michael H. Marshall7, Achim Brauer6, Henry F. Lamb7, Rebecca L. Payne8, Pavel E. Tarasov9, Tsuyoshi Haraguchi10, Katsuya Gotanda11, Hitoshi Yonenobu12, Yusuke Yokoyama13, Ryuji Tada13, Takeshi Nakagawa8 Science 19 October 2012: Vol. 338 no. 6105 pp. 370-374DOI:10.1126/science.1226660(should be available at your local library) A New Radiocarbon Yardstick from JapanOct 18, 2012 by Andrew Alden from QUEST Northern California http://www.suigetsu.org/embed.php?File=location.html
quote: Seems to be a pretty isolated system. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : added refs and links Edited by RAZD, : added third link\reference and quoteby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Done. Watch Evolution Theory Issue - Great Debate - mindspawn and RAZD onlymindspawn and RAZD only[/color] for promotion.
Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks for the extra information JonF
As to the connections between lakes, Wikipedia appears to be a little wrong. I'm not seeing much difference -- the inflow to Lake Suigetsu is fresh water from Lake Mikata, which is a freshwater lake, as wiki says:
quote: Your link says:
quote: So presumably there was no significant connection prior to that canal, and that is well after the start of the floating chronology. That would still mean "no brackish sea water flushing" (Message 257) yes?
quote: This would mean that the clay\silt runoff would be spread evenly over the top layer of the lake in the fresh water and then settle down. Seems to me that the deep salty water would be from ground water (aquifer) being salty due to proximity of ocean Interesting. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... But the varves contain many records of volcanic eruptions. Now those are being correlated with nearby volcanoes, and those volcanoes are being dated by Ar-Ar. Toward establishing precise 40Ar/39Ar chronologies for Late Pleistocene palaeoclimate archives: an example from the Lake Suigetsu (Japan) sedimentary record. Yet another consilience for YECs to fail to explain! Indeed. These ash layers are mentioned in Message 21 where we have this graph:
quote: And there is information from other sources dating some of those layers. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi RAZD, I don't have reply privileges in that forum. I actually wanted to discuss dating, but am happy to discuss evolution. I am only interested in discussing novel genes, your topic seems to be discussing whether the precise wording of my sentence reveals a misunderstanding of evolution? Hey it probably does on a semantic grammar level, you can win that debate ;-) In the meantime I wonder if nature can duplicate a gene naturally, a coding gene that then introduces a new function that adds fitness to the organism? I didn't mean to infer that I have been doing in depth studies for a year, but in a few passing discussions with evolutionists over the last year I have not yet seen evidence of this particular process. If you could show evidence for this , even a private message, I would appreciate it. okay -- lets tackle the novel gene issue first and then we can have another go at the dating issues, either here or in a great debate. See you at Evolution Theory Issue - Great Debate -mindspawn and RAZD onlymindspawn and RAZD only[/color] Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
An excellent overview and discussion of the concordance of dates from a variety of sources:
Message 254 on the Introduction To Geology thread Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Looks like I'll need to edit Message 2:
http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm
quote: Also THE ANCIENT TREES - Spiritual Forum - Ashtar Command - Spiritual Community
quote: A standing 7,000 year old dead tree standing near living trees (ie undisturbed by any flood waters ... ) and that can be tied to Methuselah, Prometheus and this new 5,062 year old tree by dendrochronology and cross-dating gives us a very strong chronology. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : 2 not 3by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
in Message 128 of the Age of mankind, dating, and the flood thread JonF posts
quote: Adding another dating correlation to the mix. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
From Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD Message 64
quote: Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks greentwiga
... Scientists have combined short lived samples, such as grasses and seeds, if they have enough, to get dates for the start and end of the Kingdoms of Egypt. They get +/- 13 years for the New Kingdom, vastly more accurate than they can get from a single sample. I was able to combine their results with the Heliacal rising of Sothis, the Eclipse of Mursili, and the lunar dates to get a great set of dates for the New Kingdom Pharaohs. ... Do you have a reference that I can use here to add this to the correlations? Also from JonF on Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD, Message 70 quote: Page not found – Naturalis Historia
quote: The 14C dates predict the depth correctly for the age of the Toba eruption. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
There are three trees that are documented to be over 4800 years old, the oldest is 5014 years old this year.
There is no change in the formation of the tree rings during those years. Can you explain this without magic and fantasy? We can discuss how this evidence is tested and validated, if you are interested, and we can discuss how the scientific method can be used to extend this chronology to 8000 years with bristlecone pines, and then to 12000 years with Irish and German oak chronologies. Note that this evidence invalidates any evidence you think demonstrates a young earth. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Questioning Answers In Genesis: Andrew Snelling concedes, radiometric dating of meteorites is solid
quote: Umm ... bogus? At best he is arguing for gap old earth creation, at worst he is saying that creation included evidence intended to deceive and provide false witness. If we don't assume that the evidence is a joke, a lie, misinformation or illusion, we are left with the overwhelming evidence, not just of age, but of consilience of results that makes the result even stronger: why do all the radiometric systems agree with such precision if they do not accurately portray the reality that the age of the earth is 4.55+ billion years old. In spite of the different radio-isotopes having markedly different decay rates (half-lives), such that each set of isotopes in the decay chains would need to be independently pre-loaded such that they would produce the same - virtually identical - result: either the earth is old or god/s is a joker. Snelling's paper can be read here: https://answersingenesis.org/...-cv3-carbonaceous-chrondrite Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
But the argument we are discussing does not involve changes of decay rate. It is agreed that 4.5+ billion years passed since the formation of the materials in meteorites. The argument is that the material in the solar system is 4.55 billion years old, but that some fraction of that time is taken up between time the materials were created and the solar system was formed. So you are arguing for a "gap" old earth argument, which starts with the creation of "primordial" material and then jumps to modern creation of the earth and life?
As I understand your comment, my question takes what you say into account except I would have talked about U238 rather than your example of K40. If the answer is that U238 dates were reset during the formation of the solar system (or maybe even the universe), then the answer is also dependent on the process of formations. YECs would insist on hocus pocus that would not do resetting rather than some violent heat pressure intensive process that would reset. As I understand it there were several different radiometric methods used. U/Pb was one another was Pb/Pb, for example. These either need to "arrive" via decay over 4.55+ billion years OR the proportions of the isotopes need to be "jiggled" so that they appear to measure the same age. I found Snelling's paper to be more confusing than enlightening on how he thought it worked out, with a lot of extraneous information added that increased the obscuring of his results.
... If the answer is that U238 dates were reset during the formation of the solar system (or maybe even the universe), then the answer is also dependent on the process of formations. ... How do you think this would work? by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
What consillience is violated? I am not aware of any radiometric dating in the vicinity of 4 billion years that couldn't be 'explained' as being primordial material. Dates of moon rocks? Dates of the occasional rare old dating earth rock? All possibly primordial material. So you are arguing for a "gap" old earth argument, which starts with the creation of "primordial" material and then jumps to modern creation of life? How far do you go back? Original hydrogen star formation that then made heavier elements in a universe some 12.7 (iirc) billion years old?
... Of the radiometric dates, C-14 dates are definitely of post creation origin and are already problematic for YECs, but of course they have separate issues and can be attacked without monkeying with decay rates. ... Which this thread addresses -- tree rings, lake varves, ice layers all show evidence for an earth older than YEC models and consilience with 14C (and other) radiometric systems.
... Also there are long aged radiometric dates that we know have been reset by the geology on earth. Those cannot be primordial. ... And these "reset" systems are used to date those (volcanic origin) rocks. Uranium decay inside zirconium crystals for instance.
... But does any of that get near 1 billion years old. I don't know, but my impression is that the primordial possibility is not so easily shaken. ... Well the age of first life has been set around 3.7 billion years ago by radiometric dating of objective evidence, so this evidence shows life on earth at that point in time, and the earth must have existed before then, and the existence of life would mean it is post primordial yes?
... At least I don't see such a counter argument spelled out in your post. Like I said, it allows for gap creationism. Edited by RAZD, : 7by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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