Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?

I've already referred to the pertinent scriptures and they don't persuade the mentality at EvC which is set on depriving Christians of our religious freedoms. Therefore, as I keep emphasizing. if the mentality here prevails in the legal system, which it apparently does, then you have taken away our religious freedom. I call that a fascist mentality. We may protest as best we can but if the mindset is against us we'll just have to take the punishment because we are not going to give up our Biblical understanding.

And obviously you have no way to tell the difference. A God that promotes terrorism, people wearing bombs and blowing themselves up along with a few other human beings in order to deserve being catered to by 72 virgins in Paradise is all the same to you as a God who died to pay for your sins so you don't have to go to Hell. And I could not care less what false gods have to say. In this matter the true God tells us that marriage is between a man and a woman and that homosexuality is sin and not a protected class, so Christians who believe in the true God through His biblical revelation will refuse to serve a gay wedding, and obviously take the punishment from a society that no longer knows how to tell the difference between the true God and the false gods;.

I guess it doesn't matter how often this is corrected you are going to go on insisting that Christians should believe what you think we should believe without regard to two millennia of theology that says otherwise.

As I understand it the Bill of Rights grants freedom of religion without any demand that the state or anyone outside the religion has to have the religion's beliefs justified to them, a demand which would nullify the whole concept of freedoms which are meant to protect different points of view that people disagree about.In any case you've all rejected the grounds on which Bible believers feel conscientiously obliged to refuse to serve a gay wedding, AND rejected the very concept that we have a right to our belief whether you agree with it or not, and as long as your mindset prevails against us and deprives us of our religious freedoms we can do nothing but obey God and take the consequences as prescribed by your tyrannical fascistic mindset.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Reasonableness and a sense of history SHOULD stop you, but since it doesn't, obviously nothing stops you at all and you will go on making this absurd and unjust moral equivalence without restraint. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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I've already referred to the pertinent scriptures and they don't persuade the mentality at EvC which is set on depriving Christians of our religious freedoms

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And here we go again with the lies and slander. Faith, your scriptures don't convince us because they don't come close to addressing the issue. Scriptures which come closer to addressing the issue disagree with you. And there's no attempt to deprive you of religious freedom. In fact it's "Christians" like you who are the main enemies of religious freedom in the U.S. Even you object to it.

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Therefore, as I keep emphasizing. if the mentality here prevails in the legal system, which it apparently does, then you have taken away our religious freedom

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And again, this is a lie. There is no direct attack on religious freedom. You can believe as you wish, worship as you wish. The ban on polygamy could be considered a far worse attack on religious freedom, given Mormon beliefs - since renounced by the mainline LDS Church, but not by at least some of the offshoots.

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I call that a fascist mentality. We may protest as best we can but if the mindset is against us we'll just have to take the punishment because we are not going to give up our Biblical understanding.

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But it is not fascist. As I've pointed out it is very like what happened with the segregationists - like you, right wing Christians who claimed that their position was Biblical, and were subjected to the same laws. But you don't protest about that. Your idea of "religious freedom" is wholly selfish, and that is one of the reasons why it is transparently not produced by any real commitment to justice or morality.

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As I understand it the Bill of Rights grants freedom of religion without any demand that the state or anyone outside the religion has to have the religion's beliefs justified to them, a demand which would nullify the whole concept of freedoms which are meant to protect different points of view that people disagree about.

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I am glad that you understand that. But you miss the implication that simply appealing to religious conviction cannot in itself be sufficient to allow you an exemption to a purely secular law. And that is why the law is NOT a threat to religious freedom, and why your demand that your belief should be deferred to while others are not IS.

I'll say it again: Segregation is not supported by the Bible and that is why the whole issue just disappeared when it was legally disallowed. But the Bible is clear that gay marriage is a violation of God's law and therefore laws that forbid us from refusing to honor gay marriage will not change our minds and we'll have to take the punishment.If your false understanding prevails we will have no choice.

Whatever you say, Paul, the tyranny of the state is on your side this time and Christians, true Christians, historically Biblical Christians, the sort that used to be prevalent in western culture, will just have to suffer from your refusal to recognize our just claim to religious freedom.

Ok, let us take a look at this in totality, shall we?The verses you referenced were as follows: And: (From Message 54)Your assertion is essentially the following: the Bible is stipulating particular rules and laws within its pages and by having secular laws trump your religious laws you are, in fact, being persecuted for your beliefs. Is that correct?Ok then, let us continue.As I mentioned in a previous post, your Bible also states the following in regards to homosexuality itself: This is a direct verse from your Bible stipulating that a particular practice is not in accordance with god's law and also provides instructions on how it should be dealt with.So now, let me posit the following scenario:You own a bakery shop and a homosexual couple comes in and asks you, the proprietor, to bake them a cake for their wedding. You refuse and then take out a shotgun and kill both of them on the spot.The police arrive. You explain that two homosexuals entered your establishment, asked for specific services, and you responded by refusing them service AND killing them as is explicitly instructed in your holy book.Now Faith, will your defense statement hold up in court? And if not, why?

You are falsely insisting again that Christians must obey certain laws meant for the Israelites that two centuries millennia of Christian theology are clear have nothing to do with Christian life. We are not under the food laws of ancient Israel, we are not a theocracy like ancient Israel and we do not execute sinners. Christ came to save and not to condemn sinners. You keep trying to impose your own false theology on us.abe: Our correct theology says we are not to honor gay marriage, period.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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I'll say it again: Segregation is not supported by the Bible and that is why the whole issue just disappeared when it was legally disallowed. But the Bible is clear that gay marriage is a violation of God's law and therefore laws that forbid us from refusing to honor gay marriage will not change our minds and we'll have to take the punishment.

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The segregationists disagreed. And unless you want the court to judge religious matters - a bigger threat to religious freedom than anything which is happening now - that is where it stops. Their argument is the same as yours. Unless you want the courts to decide what the Bible says, the precedent is already set - and accepted by you.

As I said, your mindset is going to prevail in this fascistic society and we will have to take the consequences. There is really nothing more to say about it.

You are the Bible literalist Faith. Not me. You are the one that insists that it is the inerrant word of god. Not me. As such, you are beholden to what it says in totality. As you have stated yourself numerous times in this forum.Also, one of the quotes you referenced is from Genesis. i.e. from the Book of Torah which was the foundation of the laws for the Israelites. If those laws no longer apply, you cannot then reference passages from that portion of your book, now can you? Otherwise, you are essentially Cherry Picking, now aren't you?

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Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Exodus 21:20-21

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"Corrected?"Ermmm, . . . for one thing, I don't think you ever "corrected" this extremely level-headed and fair-minded "rules-for-beating-slaves" pronouncement. Which post would that be? Be specific.Second, why in the world would YOU or any theologian have to correct god's inspired writings? God's pronouncement is quite clear: it is okay to beat your slave as long as you don't kill him quickly. What is there to correct? Unlike god's very vague and repeated pronouncement of selling all your possesions and giving it to the poor, how could it be any clearer?Maybe the "rules-for-beating-slaves" pronouncement has gone out of style with the current secular and little-of-faith crowd of today, but surely YOU do think "rules-for-beating-slaves" was a quite moral and ethical direction in the old testament days, right? I mean it was just recently that even we had a "beat-the-slave-night" on Wednesdays eve (then just recently turning into Yahtzee-night).Goodness Faith, maybe you don't have the faith in god I thought you had. Maybe you are a slad-bar-christian (you weren't even up on god's important laws of usury, were you?). God will be gravely disappointed in you. Before you lay your head on your pillow tonight, you better plead with god to forgive your lack of faith in his clear directions. If you don't and you should die in your sleep tonight, you WILL surely go to hell.Faith, I would be quite worried if I were you. Our god is a smiting-god, remember all the evil babies god personally drowned in the flood (Ha, I still get a jolly kick out of that, our god, what a jokester!), and right now you have angered him.Watch out for the wrath Faith, watch out for the wrath!

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If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Matthew 19:21

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Sell your possessions and give to those in need. This will store up treasure for you in heaven! Luke 12:33

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