The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance

Im just searching for any support and encouragement of why being a Christian is the way to go. Your version seems like hard thankless work. If God simply says NMP, Phat----it does little to encourage me and give me a reason for the increasing amount of suffering happening in my life.

not so much "whats in it for me" ....more like "God, help me."My blood sugars are way too high. I fear diabetic complications. I find myself unable to change. Is it wrong to pray for help?

Thanks, Faith. I have listened to John Piper before---he is very passionate about God and speaks of a God of comfort, rather than a God who is unknowable.I believe in a God who is knowable. Sometimes I think that it is myself whom I need to get to know...and don't know why it is I subconsciously sabotage my own progress in life.

I have a question concerning your theory that attributes much of Christian belief into preservation of "the franchise".

Why would so called men of God willfully and knowingly manipulate scripture for their own gain? If human nature is like this, why is there any hope for the rest of us?

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concerning Anselm of Canterbury...in your opinion did he knowingly and willingly perpetuate and/or start certain doctrines that in essence were designed for his own job security? The evidence seems to indicate this, but what Im trying to find is the reason behind the motives of these churchmens hearts and minds. I mean...if they can be so manipulative, what hope is there for the rest of us even being able...much less willing to "take up the cross" of a hard life?

OK let me see if I have all of this straight.

Basically, Christianity before Anselm was rather straightforward...more of a "take up your cross" Christianity rather than a "get out of hell free" Christianity. But what about Paul? Much of the saved by grace get out of hell Christianity was attributed to him....

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Salvation is a gift and is graciously given to us meaning that none of us start out damned. We can, however, mess this up by behaving badly during our life here on earth...(they always taught me that no matter what I did, God had me in His grip and I was assured salvation.....)

Yes...but i guess im a bit put off by the whole idea that more than a few church folk are selling anything. Of course I can see how a few megachurches and televangelists are selling rather than telling...but the idea that most of mainstream christianity here in the United States...many if not most preach salvation by grace through faith...are willingly selling that promise...is a bit hard to take.Of course, as a Christian I agree with the idea that I am charged to do rather than simply believe. I dont feel that I have to go run out and do do do all the time...such as some Jehovahs Witnesses believe...but I agree in principle that if I do in fact have the mind of Christ it would make sense that I do likewise. And I agree that little things mean a lot. Helping the neighbors....helping people I encounter daily who cant help themselves and who likely cant pay me back. I also agree that in all honesty none of us know for a fact whether we will get to heaven...or if there is even a heaven or a God.I fervently believe that such a God exists, however. You point out that I want this God to help Phat. You are right. I do tend to look at God as having so much more than any of us have...thus why can't He be generous?One thing I don't like about church is that its so hard to be honest there. Its almost like the emperor with no clothes that nobody is supposed to talk about.And I don't want to hurt anyone's faith by busting their bubble...I would be branded an antagonist.My Pastor does a lot of good for the community and he is not a wealthy man. He puts in a lot of time and effort and I respect that about him.Sometimes I get an urge to challenge and debate him, but I fear it would go badly. The bottom line, after all, is helping others....and he does that just fine. The theology is irrelevant.

To me, church is not a classroom where folks question what they believe--its a place where folks share their belief. Besides...I am unsure at this point what it is exactly that I believe...apart from my unwavering belief that GOD understands...and cares.

To which jar replies: I think that I understand your position. Joe Woods always challenged you to think, but what I'm referring to is the worship service...We both know that the United States suffers from confirmation bias. And I realize that U.S. charismatic/fundamentalist Club Christian have some real problems with confirmation bias. My point is that a worship service should be a place where people agree--if but a moment---whom it is they are worshiping and singing praises to.After all, you refer to yourself as a cradle creedal christian....surely you dont question the Nicene Creed, do you?

I believe in One God. Creator of all seen and unseen. Although humans may have made up tales of gods and goblins, this God pre-existed all human wisdom and defined/created us long before we even had the capability to imagine Him.

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I believe that Jesus once existed and now exists eternally. As far as His death bringing about atonement for humanity, I'm not sure. I DO believe that Jesus is our link to communication with GOD. As far as being the ONLY way? Im not sure...but its the way I have chosen to believe in.

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The church is more than one denomination, but as to it being more than Christianity...i'm undecided. Inclusiveness seems like a feel-good cop-out to me.

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I believe that original sin was an invention of humanity--not God---but the evidence shows that humans behave badly rather predictably. Owning up and taking responsibility are wonderful sound bites but are not popular. People need to confess their shortcomings to God. If they dont believe, I suppose they could hire a psycho-therapist but it would end up costing more.

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Mr. Ringo---as an agnostic, do you still leave a line of communication open should God ever decide to call you?

Of course. God could force everyone to acknowledge His presence but it is said that the Spirit is a perfect gentleman.Of course I suppose that to a logical mind, He could send a lifeboat, a helicopter and a paramedic should you ever need them.Perhaps the bigger question is whether or not you would recognize the ringtone when He did call you.

Touche

What I man is what a person chooses to affirm. Once I affirm that I believe in a Creed, for example, I would be silly to be forever doubting what I had affirmed. Of course we test on a daily basis---"How Do You Know It's God" is a great example...but I don't forever question whether God exists or if Jesus is alive today. These beliefs have been settled. Now....as you have brought up before, if I am honest I know that I could be wrong. I also know that I wont know for sure until at least after I die...barring any miracles.It would be pretty silly though for me to one day affirm that I believe in the Creator of all seen and unseen and then the next day question that belief. Of course I suppose if I had terminal cancer and was dying and broke I would likely question it then.

Identifying false religionsExcept the possibility that that Being may allow for us to understand it. We as humans do not have the power to allow slime mold to understand us...theoretically. The fact that GOD could provide a method or mediation for us to understand Him...if but a little...is quite possible. Are you suggesting that the closer we are to claiming to understand GOD, the less it makes GOD out to be? I don't deny that GOD is far beyond our capacity to ever fully understand. I am arguing the idea that we may be able to get a glimpse of how GOD is because GOD allowed the communion to take place. Not because of any understanding we ourselves ever arrived at.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

so in other words, those who claim to be wise are but fools...while fools who admit they are fools are given wisdom?

I can tell. What I cant do is explain to you what I feel. You seem to be very disrespectful at times also...claiming that I am lying and claiming that I dreamed all this up. Thats your character, though. You have many good traits and a few bad ones. Let me just say though---bad burritos are felt in the intestines and stomach. Not so with the awareness of GOD in us. Have you ever read the Bible, jar? Do you not see where there are reports of men who knew GOD well?