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Author | Topic: Atheists can't hold office in the USA? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Having heard of gods is not the same as "knowing they exist". I've heard of Zeus, Thor, etc. but I don't "know they exist". I know that the idea of Zeus and Thor exists but that has nothing to do with my belief in them.
If you don't know that they exist *at all* ie never heard of them, you can not believe in them. If you'd never heard of god, how could you believe in him?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
If you've never heard of it and/or you don't know what it is, you have to be agnostic about it.
... but we talking about someone not knowing what the Jets were - you can't believe in it and you can't be agnostic because there's nothing to 'don't know' about, just as there's nothing to believe in.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
I don't think it is, as I've already pointed out. Juries deliberate because they don't know what to believe.
Belief is a positive position you either have it or not.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
They are required to make up their minds what and whom to believe.
Juries are required to make up their minds about facts. ie knowledge. Tangle writes:
"Facts" in a legal context are not "knowledge" the same as they are in a scientific context. Juries are required to come to a consensus on what they believe "the facts" are.
If there are no facts to choose between charges can not be brought. Tangle writes:
Because I don't know whether Bigfoot exists, I am agnostic. Whether I believe anything on the subject is irrelevant to my agnosticism on the subject.
You have already accepted this distinction by saying that you don't know that Bigfoot exists but you believe that he does.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Yes. Belief is irrational. That's an impossible, irrational position which removes all meaning from the word 'belief'. When there is no rational answer, when we don't know, when we don't have the facts, we believe. I don't know whether Bigfoot exists. I am agnostic about the existence of Bigfoot. That's why I have to fall back on belief. I only have a belief because I'm agnostic.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
It's always "don't know". The jury is asked what it believes, not what it knows. If anybody knew, there wouldn't be any need for juries.
Sure, and they are asked to vote guilty or not guilty. There is no 'don't know' - a don't know is 'not guilty'. Tangle writes:
Whether you believe in gods or not, you're an agnostic. You don't know, even if you believe you do.
If you don't believe god exists, you're an atheist. If you don't know if you believe there's a god, you don't believe in god. You are therefore an atheist.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
That doesn't make any sense at all. If I don't know whether Bigfoot exists, I am agnostic. That's what the word means. My belief, one way or the other, is completely irrelevant to my knowledge. It's my lack of knowledge that makes me agnostic, period.
If I now ask you whether you believe Bigfoot exists you will say 'yes' because you have already told us that you believe in Bigfoot. You are therefore absolutely NOT agnostic about Bigfoot's existence.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
I thought you already acknowledged that knowledge and belief are two different states. Could it possibly be that you are speaking of two different states? One concerning knowledge (rational) the other concerning belief (irrational.) Since they are two different states, there is no problem whatsoever for me to not know and yet believe. Or I could not know and not believe.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dwise1 writes:
That's probably a big part of it. It also works on black people and women.
Blind stupid bigotry? dwise1 writes:
I'm not comfortable with all of the concern about what the Founding Fathers intended. To a large extent the Founding Fathers were blind stupid bigots.
Whatever does any of that have to do with what the Founding Fathers had intended?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
That isn't true, as I've already pointed out. There's also, "I don't know what to believe." Remember juries?
Note that you can only believe or not believe. There's no other state for belief.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Sometimes you have to make a choice, like when you're on a jury or in a restaurant. You don't know that the shrimp will be better than the chicken but you have to choose one. You choose what to believe.
If you don't know what to believe - as, in say Bigfoot - you can not believe in Bigfoot. Tangle writes:
And you were wrong. There's "I don't know but I'll go along with the majority." You don't know. You might believe or you might not believe.
Yes, I remember juries and I remember reminding you that there is no "I don't know" category for a juror.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
They have to believe beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no reasonable doubt about what you know. There is no reasonable doubt that 1 plus 1 equals 2.
In order to convict, a juror must be convinced 'beyond reasonable doubt' of guilt. Tangle writes:
Exactly. The possibility of not guilty is there for two reasons: either the jury is reasonably sure that he is not guilty or they are not reasonably sure that he is guilty. In either case, they don't know.
An alternative form of words is "such that you are sure." No room for don't know. If you are not sure, the verdict is not guilty.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
No. It doesn't work that way. A jury is required to come up with a verdict and the default is not guilty (or the case is thrown out). And when they don't know, their verdict is not guilty. It's not 'I don't know.' If you don't know whether you believe in god, the verdict is that you don't believe in god. In personal beliefs there is no default. Don't know is the largest category. It's only an arrogant minority that claims to know, one way or the other.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
You're the one who's conflating knowledge with belief. A jury doesn't know. They believe.
For as long as you - and others - use knowledge (know and don't know) as a simile for belief, we're never going to meet. Tangle writes:
So you're an agnostic. Get used to it.
I differ from Faith in that I also claim to not *know* whether god exists or not. In fact I say that it is impossible to know or not know god.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
Watch your own lips: You claim to understand that knowledge and belief are two different things, so why do you ask for an explanation that conflates them into one? Watch my lips: "I do not believe in god, gods, God, Gods" Now explain how I'm agnostic about god. You do not believe in god, gods, God, Gods BUT you do not know whether they exist or not. Your belief or lack of belief is irrelevant.
Tangle writes:
Are you hoping that belief and knowledge will magically become the same and different at the same time?
Are you hoping that the word will simply disappear in a puff of holy smoke?
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