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Author Topic:   Atheists can't hold office in the USA?
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 305 of 777 (748931)
01-31-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Tangle
01-31-2015 11:53 AM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
If you don't know that they exist *at all* ie never heard of them, you can not believe in them. If you'd never heard of god, how could you believe in him?
Having heard of gods is not the same as "knowing they exist". I've heard of Zeus, Thor, etc. but I don't "know they exist". I know that the idea of Zeus and Thor exists but that has nothing to do with my belief in them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2015 11:53 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2015 12:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 307 of 777 (748934)
01-31-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tangle
01-31-2015 12:06 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
... but we talking about someone not knowing what the Jets were - you can't believe in it and you can't be agnostic because there's nothing to 'don't know' about, just as there's nothing to believe in.
If you've never heard of it and/or you don't know what it is, you have to be agnostic about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2015 12:06 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2015 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 324 of 777 (749043)
02-01-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
01-31-2015 1:11 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
Belief is a positive position you either have it or not.
I don't think it is, as I've already pointed out. Juries deliberate because they don't know what to believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2015 1:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 1:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 327 of 777 (749048)
02-01-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Tangle
02-01-2015 1:33 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
Juries are required to make up their minds about facts. ie knowledge.
They are required to make up their minds what and whom to believe.
Tangle writes:
If there are no facts to choose between charges can not be brought.
"Facts" in a legal context are not "knowledge" the same as they are in a scientific context. Juries are required to come to a consensus on what they believe "the facts" are.
Tangle writes:
You have already accepted this distinction by saying that you don't know that Bigfoot exists but you believe that he does.
Because I don't know whether Bigfoot exists, I am agnostic. Whether I believe anything on the subject is irrelevant to my agnosticism on the subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 1:33 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 2:16 PM ringo has replied
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 2:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 330 of 777 (749054)
02-01-2015 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Tangle
02-01-2015 2:16 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
That's an impossible, irrational position which removes all meaning from the word 'belief'.
Yes. Belief is irrational.
When there is no rational answer, when we don't know, when we don't have the facts, we believe.
I don't know whether Bigfoot exists. I am agnostic about the existence of Bigfoot. That's why I have to fall back on belief. I only have a belief because I'm agnostic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 2:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 2:47 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 332 of 777 (749056)
02-01-2015 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Tangle
02-01-2015 2:35 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
Sure, and they are asked to vote guilty or not guilty. There is no 'don't know' - a don't know is 'not guilty'.
It's always "don't know". The jury is asked what it believes, not what it knows. If anybody knew, there wouldn't be any need for juries.
Tangle writes:
If you don't believe god exists, you're an atheist. If you don't know if you believe there's a god, you don't believe in god. You are therefore an atheist.
Whether you believe in gods or not, you're an agnostic. You don't know, even if you believe you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 2:35 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 334 of 777 (749058)
02-01-2015 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Tangle
02-01-2015 2:47 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
If I now ask you whether you believe Bigfoot exists you will say 'yes' because you have already told us that you believe in Bigfoot. You are therefore absolutely NOT agnostic about Bigfoot's existence.
That doesn't make any sense at all. If I don't know whether Bigfoot exists, I am agnostic. That's what the word means. My belief, one way or the other, is completely irrelevant to my knowledge. It's my lack of knowledge that makes me agnostic, period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 2:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 4:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 352 of 777 (749115)
02-02-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Tangle
02-01-2015 4:12 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
Could it possibly be that you are speaking of two different states? One concerning knowledge (rational) the other concerning belief (irrational.)
I thought you already acknowledged that knowledge and belief are two different states.
Since they are two different states, there is no problem whatsoever for me to not know and yet believe. Or I could not know and not believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2015 4:12 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2015 11:12 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 353 of 777 (749116)
02-02-2015 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by dwise1
02-02-2015 4:01 AM


Re: Know Thyself
dwise1 writes:
Blind stupid bigotry?
That's probably a big part of it. It also works on black people and women.
dwise1 writes:
Whatever does any of that have to do with what the Founding Fathers had intended?
I'm not comfortable with all of the concern about what the Founding Fathers intended. To a large extent the Founding Fathers were blind stupid bigots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by dwise1, posted 02-02-2015 4:01 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 356 of 777 (749122)
02-02-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Tangle
02-02-2015 11:12 AM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
Note that you can only believe or not believe. There's no other state for belief.
That isn't true, as I've already pointed out. There's also, "I don't know what to believe." Remember juries?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2015 11:12 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2015 11:36 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 358 of 777 (749127)
02-02-2015 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Tangle
02-02-2015 11:36 AM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
If you don't know what to believe - as, in say Bigfoot - you can not believe in Bigfoot.
Sometimes you have to make a choice, like when you're on a jury or in a restaurant. You don't know that the shrimp will be better than the chicken but you have to choose one. You choose what to believe.
Tangle writes:
Yes, I remember juries and I remember reminding you that there is no "I don't know" category for a juror.
And you were wrong. There's "I don't know but I'll go along with the majority." You don't know. You might believe or you might not believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2015 11:36 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2015 12:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 373 of 777 (749229)
02-03-2015 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Tangle
02-02-2015 12:54 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
In order to convict, a juror must be convinced 'beyond reasonable doubt' of guilt.
They have to believe beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no reasonable doubt about what you know. There is no reasonable doubt that 1 plus 1 equals 2.
Tangle writes:
An alternative form of words is "such that you are sure." No room for don't know. If you are not sure, the verdict is not guilty.
Exactly. The possibility of not guilty is there for two reasons: either the jury is reasonably sure that he is not guilty or they are not reasonably sure that he is guilty. In either case, they don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2015 12:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2015 11:17 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 381 of 777 (749240)
02-03-2015 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by Tangle
02-03-2015 11:17 AM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
And when they don't know, their verdict is not guilty. It's not 'I don't know.'
If you don't know whether you believe in god, the verdict is that you don't believe in god.
No. It doesn't work that way. A jury is required to come up with a verdict and the default is not guilty (or the case is thrown out).
In personal beliefs there is no default. Don't know is the largest category. It's only an arrogant minority that claims to know, one way or the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2015 11:17 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2015 11:42 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 386 of 777 (749246)
02-03-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Tangle
02-03-2015 11:42 AM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
For as long as you - and others - use knowledge (know and don't know) as a simile for belief, we're never going to meet.
You're the one who's conflating knowledge with belief. A jury doesn't know. They believe.
Tangle writes:
I differ from Faith in that I also claim to not *know* whether god exists or not. In fact I say that it is impossible to know or not know god.
So you're an agnostic. Get used to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2015 11:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2015 12:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 426 of 777 (749505)
02-05-2015 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Tangle
02-03-2015 12:29 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
Watch my lips:
"I do not believe in god, gods, God, Gods"
Now explain how I'm agnostic about god.
Watch your own lips: You claim to understand that knowledge and belief are two different things, so why do you ask for an explanation that conflates them into one?
You do not believe in god, gods, God, Gods BUT you do not know whether they exist or not. Your belief or lack of belief is irrelevant.
Tangle writes:
Are you hoping that the word will simply disappear in a puff of holy smoke?
Are you hoping that belief and knowledge will magically become the same and different at the same time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2015 12:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2015 8:44 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2015 8:45 AM ringo has replied

  
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