Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?

There was no law enforcing gay marriage until quite recently when state courts began denying the gay marriage ban initiatives, giving a basis for the challenges to Christian businesses. And soon the Supreme Court will rule on it, which will most likely make gay marriage an idol Christians can't bow down to all across the country.Yes they will be driven out of business across the country if they are true Christians because gay marriage is a violation of God's law no Christian can serve in any way at all. Unbelievers don't get it but what else is new?It's like the requirement to worship or sacrifice to the Roman gods that the Christians also would not do, which got them eaten by lions and burnt to death; also like the requirement to endorse transubstantiation which got them tortured and murdered by the papal version of the Roman Empire later on. The Nazi version of the Roman Empire, also inspired by Roman Catholicism, killed Jews in preference to Christians though they got a few Christians too, but now we're heading into a Fourth Reich, which in America is starting with putting Christians out of business. Didn't Nazi Germany keep making laws that deprived Jews of rights too, before they sent them off to the camps? I know you all don't like being compared to the Nazis, you like to pin that one on the Christians instead, but today's Nazis are the "liberals." Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yes, RAZD, they will choose to go out of business rather than bow down to the latest equivalent of the Roman gods.

Come on - let's debate this on the level. It would only be like the requirement to worship or sacrifice to the Roman gods, if you were being required to marry another woman, wouldn't it Faith ? Let's drop the hyoerbole in the comparisons.I can understand a certain feeling of conscience on the part of a really fundamental Christian (I happen to feel that certain feeling of conscience is outweighed by the rights of gay people). But as long as you exaggerate the outrage, you aren't going to present your case that well.So no - it isn't like Christians being forced to worship other gods. It's Christians being required not to withhold public services from people who have a different world view to them.

I'm not exaggerating anything. So far I think it's six Christian businesses that have refused to serve a gay wedding and been sued or vandalized or both, and it's going to get worse. We are asked to endorse as a normal sexual expression something God calls sin, sin worthy of death come to that, compounded by a violation of His creation ordinance defining marriage as between a man and a woman. You obviously don't get it but I can't help that. This is how it's going down and you may never get it, I don't know. Meanwhile Christians who are unwilling to compromise God's word are going to suffer for it. The devil is indeed very clever with the definitions he uses to entrap us. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You could say the Romans with their multiple gods merely had a "different world view" from the Christians who insisted on worshiping only the one true Creator God. What's the big deal, so make a little sacrifice to stay alive. Violate God's law to keep your business open. Big deal.

Possibly, but not because I'm not Christian. What I'm not getting, results from logical failures in the comparisons you're making.There's levels of imposition society could require upon Christians. In descending order of egregiousness:1. We could require you to give up your faith or adopt another. This is the equivalent level of imposition you were comparing the current situation with, when you comapared it with Christians being required to worship Roman gods. This is not happening. You are more than entitled to you Christian beliefs and worship.2. We could require you personally to act in a way which was explicitly contrary to your Chrisitan beliefs. This is not happening. We are not requiring you to marry another woman.3. We could require you to explicitly condone something which is contrary to your beliefs. This is not happening. No church will be required to conduct gay marriages. You are entitled to your freedom of speech on the issue.4. We could require you (and are requiring you) not to do something which does not explicitly condone something which is contrary to your beliefs. (Sorry for the triple negative, but it sort of keeps the flow going). You can bake a cake for someone, and still say you find their union contrary to God's law - you can't do that in situation 3 above, if you're conducting their wedding ceremony.5. We could require you not to do something which has nothing to do with your beliefs - eg don't speed on the highway.Now, I will happily concede and agree with you that we are not in area 5. I will agree that you feel uncomfortable about the concept of baking a cake for a gay wedding - that there is an element of conscience about it. But we are down at item 4 out of 5 on the outrage meter.I think that Christian businesses can afford to feel a bit uncomfortable, because they can still maintain their Christian views about gay weddings. I think as well, that the discomfort is outweighed by the harm in discriminating unjustly against a section of society. And let's face it - if you're right and we're wrong, you can get to feel smug about it in the afterlife.But let's stop with the exaggeration - we are not at levels 1, 2 or 3 above.

Can you show that you do not?Edited by ramoss, : s

Sure, you could require us to serve gay weddings or be put to death, all kinds of things you COULD do to us Christians. And may yet for all I know, since this is probably just the first round. That doesn't change a thing in the current circumstances which I have described accurately and which will force Bible believers to close their businesses if they don't comply with your current level of injustice against us. You are happy to make us suffer a LITTLE, apparently, just not as much as is actually starting to happen. And all you want is that we give up the way WE see it for the way YOU see it. Wonderful freedom there. Watch what the Supreme Court does and the fallout from that if it's what we're all expecting. Coming soon. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yep, so that gay folks don't suffer more.

There is still no law "enforcing gay marriage". Heterosexual couples can still get married as before. And many are doing it.

No. They are being asked to bake a cake or to arrange some flowers. They are not being asked to endorse anything.

For what it's worth, I think the gays that are targeting the simple-minded, fundamentalist bigots just to make a point are behaving badly and it's not helping their cause.They've won the rights that they deserve and society needs, they should be graceful in victory and buy their cakes from those willing to make them eagerly for them and let the ignoramouses serve their own markets - they'll be gone in a couple of generations anyway.There are better things to do with anger - being vindictive and spiteful now against a few bonkers bakers doesn't advance their cause any.

And Playing with words again, what good does that do you? We still understand the situation the way we understand it and not the way you understand it. The Christian businesses already targeted understand it as condoning gay marriage to perform special request wedding services for a gay wedding, no matter what all the rest of you think. They didn't consult anybody, they just knew they were being asked to violate God's law and they very politely declined and offered alternatives.They all independently knew what it meant although apparently nobody here gets it. You can insist all you like that it's not REALLY condoning gay marriage to make a wedding cake or do the floral arrangements or take the official photographs. Or cater the reception in the case of the Indiana pizzeria that was also shut down by these Oppressed Victims. So I guess you can pretend not to notice when thousands of Christian businesses are forced to close. Or silently applaud, or whatever you are inclined to do.But that IS what is going to happen if the SCOTUS declares all the gay marriage ban initiatives unconstitutional and in effect makes gay marriage legitimate across the country. It really isn't going to matter what YOU think is the right Christian response or logical or whatever. WE know what it means and we'll be the ones suffering for it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Again, nobody is forcing them to close. They are choosing voluntarily to violate the conditions of their licenses, the same as if they were choosing voluntarily to keep a herd of pet cockroaches in the kitchen.