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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
See, the problem is nobody has a real sense of history any more, and I've only been learning some of it recently myself because all we get these days is propaganda. All of the original thirteen colonies had religious constitutions, one of them unfortunately Catholic, but all the rest were "my particular brand of religion," being Bible-based Protestant. That such a foundation was turned into a federal government that denies those Christian roots was an incredible betrayal and there were plenty who objected to it but we don't hear any of that any more, The country was SO Christian in its population and basic worldview that it seemed to BE Christian despite the built-in betrayal. Even the main founders, who were really not Christian, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, weren't looking to get rid of Christianity, not at all, just wanted to cut down on the interdenominational squabbles. Unfortunately they unwittingly set a precedent that allowed all the anti-Christian hatred we see at EvC to flourish as it does today.
Yeah, you're listening to Barton and his crew again. Yes there were religious state constitutions. Yes there was some discussion of religion in the Constitution. All else is lies.
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
t's what the original American colonies did, and since they were original, how can anyone imagine they would have seen things any differently when it came to establishing a federal government. Because they saw firsthand the problems that the original plans caused.
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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Does it make any sense that the original extremely Christian colonies with their Christian laws could possibly have intentionally designed a secular Constitution that would eventually allow the anti-Christian attitudes expressed now at EvC? There aren't anti-Christian attituded being expressed here. Of course they are. In every message. You forget Faith defines words as she wishes. "Anti=Christian" means "not agreeing with Faith in every particular".
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
And yet, somehow that is exactly opposite of what happened. For someone who claims to know so much history, Faith, you seem to have forgotten to start with the very document that those people produced. You may not be aware that there's a cottage industry in the US, David Barton and his ilk, that specializes in lying about the Constitution and the Founding Fathers to make "christians" like Faith feel better about their refusal to follow Jesus.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Despite Faith's fantastic assertions that there is any attempt to get rid of Christianity in the US the reality is that even before there were States the country and its citizenry were increasingly secular. Even in strongly Methodist and Baptist Virginia most folk just didn't go to church. Sunday horse races took precedence over Sunday Church most everywhere.
What folk were aware of though was the threat that was the various Christian denominations. Several of the Colonies had been created specifically as refuges from other Christian sects and if they were to ever become States, part of a Union, then there needed to be some method that assured no sect could ever gain political power. The result in Religious Colony after Religious Colony with the exception New England was the establishment of conditions in their constitutions requiring religious freedom. Not all the colonies were established based on religion. The first British Colony was Virginia and it was a commercial secular venture, not religious. Georgia was also a secular venture and not religious. New York, Delaware, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Delaware, North and South Carolina were also all initially commercial endeavors. So at least nine of the original thirteen colonies were secular commercial creations as opposed to religious.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
But you have no evidence any of this is true.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It was the papacy as a system that was identified as Antichrist by Luther for sure but others as well, with or without an idea of a Final Antichrist who would embody all the biblical specifics in one person. Yes the idea fell out of favor and some strenuously argued against it It fell out of favor for good reason. The entire idea is inane and as you acknowledge, non-Biblical. There is an Anti-Christ in the Bible, and it isn't some already dead pope or line of popes. The idea of the line of popes being the anti-Christs is made up out of whole cloth.
but the Reformers' reasoning is very compelling. I've noticed that you find lots of superstitions compelling. But again, the idea in question here simply isn't Biblical. I suspect that you don't even recall the reasoning. Yet the idea itself is locked in your head along side some pretty silly ideas about biology and geology. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Plus Luther did not identify the Pope as the Antichrist and in fact in his 95 Thesis supports the authority of the Pope and Papacy.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
es. I'd have to check sources but the argument is that they had Christian denominations in mind and never any idea of other religions, because that's how Christian the nation was at the time. So in your mind, when the constitution said that there would be no religious tests for public office, that somehow exclude tests for Christianity? Perhaps you need to reconsider your argument.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Plus Luther did not identify the Pope as the Antichrist and in fact in his 95 Thesis supports the authority of the Pope and Papacy. Well, of course.; At first he had no intention of leaving the Roman Church, he was merely raising issues for debate which he assumed would be agreeable to the Pope. It was when the Pope rebuffed his efforts that he began to see problems. It took him a few years to arrive at the conclusion that the papacy was the Antichrist.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yet in the 95 Thesis Luther did support the authority of the Pope and Papacy.
But even beyond that, to make the claim today that the Pope is the Antichrist is simply silly. No even one characteristic of a Antichrist fits the Pope or Papacy. Today such claims are just laughable, yet more evidence that the Christian Cult of Ignorance is founded upon dishonesty and marketing hate to the gullible. It is yet another evidence that the CCoI really is the greatest threat the US faces.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It was the papacy as a system that was identified as Antichrist by Luther for sure but others as well, with or without an idea of a Final Antichrist who would embody all the biblical specifics in one person. Yes the idea fell out of favor and some strenuously argued against it
It fell out of favor for good reason. The entire idea is inane and as you acknowledge, non-Biblical. You have a knack for misreading me that I can never anticipate. I wasn't saying that the idea is non-Biblical at all, I merely happened to mention that the biblical specifics of an individual Antichrist might or might not also be part of the analysis. But that certainly isn't saying the Reformers' view of the papacy as Antichrist didn't also meet those biblical specifics. It did. They matched the papacy with every biblical reference.
There is an Anti-Christ in the Bible, and it isn't some already dead pope or line of popes. The idea of the line of popes being the anti-Christs is made up out of whole cloth. Obviously you haven't read any of Luther's arguments on the subject. The papacy is always one man at a time so there is always AN Antichrist on the papal throne.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 641 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I don't see where God is actually saying anything about sin what so ever. I see a bunch of people make claims in God's name, but that is vastly different than God saying anything.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yet in the 95 Thesis Luther did support the authority of the Pope and Papacy. Pretty silly to hold him to a position he completely rejected a few years later.
But even beyond that, to make the claim today that the Pope is the Antichrist is simply silly. No even one characteristic of a Antichrist fits the Pope or Papacy. You need to read the Reformers' thoughts on the subject.
Today such claims are just laughable, yet more evidence that the Christian Cult of Ignorance is founded upon dishonesty and marketing hate to the gullible. Well, the idea is not popular among Christians so you can drop your smear of all Christians. This happens to be something I've been learning about and become convinced of personally.
It is yet another evidence that the CCoI really is the greatest threat the US faces. Must be me alone who is that greatest threat then, along with a few dozen others, because the idea, as I said, is not popular with evangelicals. Most are deluded that the Roman Church is just another Christian denomination, and their idea of the Antichrist is that he's going to appear pretty soon but that nobody knows who he is, and he'll rise rapidly to world political power. Since Hitler was a model for that kind of Antichrist I hold out the possibility that the basic idea is right but that the Pope will be his main backer, as the Pope was also for Hitler.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I do not read Barton and reject his stuff as false.
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