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Author | Topic: Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
She worships men who twist and misrepresent the Bible, as she has often demonstrated.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: I don't know anyone who believes that. Most sensible and informed people believe that evolution is responsible. And if you don't know that by no, what have you been doing here all these years ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Your problem is that many atheists accept evolution which is a process which provides guidance and goes well beyond the capabilities of random combinations. And, f course, evolution is a mindless process which naturally follows from the existence of imperfect self-replicators.
quote: As I pointed out above evolution is an inevitable consequence of the existence of imperfect self-replicators. And only creationists believe that conscious moral beings were produced by anything that could be called abiogenesis. How abiogenesis really occurred on Earth is up for grabs (if it happened on Earth, which is only the more likely possibility) but there does not seem to be any reason why self-replicating chemicals could not form and acquire elaborations through evolutionary processes. Where you put abiogenesis in that process depends on where you draw the line between life and non-life, but that is a fine point of no real importance here.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Since evolution is the inevitable consequence of a population of imperfect replicators the only thing to be explained is the existence of said replicators. Once the population exists it will evolve and no pre-existing intelligence is required. And of course if we wish to compare degrees of faith it cannot be done by a hostile and dishonest look at one point of view. Both points must be fairly examined. You propose a pre-existing intelligence, unlike anything known to exist and with even less explanation of why it should exist. Unless your only criteria is what you personally find easy to believe - which certainly cannot be applied to other people - then surely your position requires more faith to believe.
quote: No. I responded because you dishonestly attacked the atheist position. Indeed your only defence is that you find your views more plausible - a purely personal opinion. Attacking opposing views while not putting your own up for examination is no honest defence.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Evolution requires that the replication process does not always make exact copies, and that those differences are at least sometimes inheritable. This is what I mean by "imperfect replicators". Given this, evolution will occur in the absence of any external interference.
quote: Naturalism does not require an infinite regress. Science, in the other hand, is (rightly) reluctant to conclude that we have reached the end of explanation and will continue to look until it is certain we can go no further.
quote: The pint is, of course, that while you claimed to be "only defending" your own views you were in fact only attacking an opposing view. And doing so dishonestly.
quote: Unfortunately your contentions frequently lack intellectual honesty and sometimes even lack plain honesty.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
I think that you are overlooking a number of points.
First, foreknowledge implies predestination. It is not possible to know the future unless the future is fixed. Second, when it is considered that God supposedly created everything and intervenes within time It necessarily follows that God has a major hand in dictating the future. And if you also grant that God has perfect knowledge of the consequences of His actions, and can use that knowledge in deciding His actions then it follows that God has dictated everything that occurs. But if you do not grant it aren't you the one limiting God? Third, what about God changing his mind? Saying that he will do something and then, in the end, not doing it? If God knew that he would not do it, wouldn't He be lying when he said that He would ? Consider the implications of that.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5
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quote: We're not talking about guessing or probabilistic predictions here. We're talking about actual certain and complete knowledge of the future. Which is logically impossible unless the future is entirely fixed. How could it be otherwise?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: No, that isn't the question. The question is what is Gods role in shaping that fixed future. To what degree can God anticipate the consequences of His actions? The Christian God does not simply observe a universe not of his making. According to Christianity of any stripe God has had an important role in the shaping of our universe and in human history.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Perhaps you are are misunderstanding the point. I am not saying that foreknowledge causes the future to be fixed. I am saying that a fixed future is a requirement for perfect foreknowledge. God cannot with absolute certainty know what I will have for lunch today unless it is absolutely certain that I will eat that lunch today. And it must be absolutely certain now, before I have made my decision.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
No, the complications come from other matters (such as Gods actions within time).
From our perspective the future is not fixed. From your Gods perspective it must be, or He cannot have certain knowledge of the future.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Which brings us to the second - and far more important - point from my post.
Second, when it is considered that God supposedly created everything and intervenes within time It necessarily follows that God has a major hand in dictating the future. And if you also grant that God has perfect knowledge of the consequences of His actions, and can use that knowledge in deciding His actions then it follows that God has dictated everything that occurs. But if you do not grant it aren't you the one limiting God?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: What's the difference? It isn't that the script allows ad-libs or that it is knowingly followed. If you want to say that the outcome is controlled by hidden manipulation rather than direc command I'd agree, but that still seems to be better described as being dictated rather than scripted.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: If everything that occurs necessarily follows from Gods actions - actions taken knowing those consequences, and with a huge range of alternatives available - then that would seem to fit well enough. And that is the situation we are discussing.
quote: But the evil is - in your words - "scripted" too, and the obviously the creator of the script is the author.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: It is the issue that we are discussing - or were since you seem to have decided to run away. Obviously I have posed a problem that you cannot answer to your satisfaction. It is interesting that Christian apologists so often need to paint their God as an uninvolved observer of the universe instead of a creator who actively intervenes in His creation. If that's the sort of God you believe in why not be a Deist ?
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