The Marketing Of Christianity

I agree, and what you say reminds me of Jesus prayer: Note how Jesus prays for those whom God has given Him and not simply everybody. I agree that we are called to infect the world with Gods love and that we dont know whom God may have given us so it is best to treat everyone the same. I don't believe that everyone is going to make it---and quite honestly I myself may end up being one of the casualties. In a sense, its a bit like natural selection. Only the worthy people survive to carry out the next great commission.
Jar may well be right in that many of these people won't even be Christians.My point is that not everybody will survive the spiritual pruning that will take place.

I don't know whether any of the internet quotes I find are correct unless I've verified the source in at least 3 different places.Buddha allegedly talks of fate. fate and chance are essentially the same thing...its a false belief(in my opinion) in that its impersonal and random. What Buddha says...however...is that if fate exists it exists necessarily contingent on what we do. That's closer to Christianity than random chance is.Edited by Phat, : changed Gandhi to Buddha..i knew it was one of them

Perhaps I should have worded it better. I mean the ongoing Great Commission. I believe they go together. jar caused me to think and I believe he has a point in saying that Christianity is about what we do. I always jokingly refer to him as the apostle to the atheists! Were I to be honest, I would say that I know that I should serve others more and serve myself less..and this is an ongoing charge and call in my heart,mind, and practical life. Yes, I think we are on the same page.

Regarding Pauls Epistles.

quote:

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EPISTLE

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Ancient letters normally followed a pattern which included: (1) an introduction, listing the names of sender and recipient, followed by a formal greeting inquiring about the recipient's health and a thanksgiving formula; (2) a body, or purpose for writing; and (3) a conclusion, consisting of appropriate remarks and a farewell. The farewell was normally written in the hand of the sender to show the recipient it was an authentic letter.

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The apostle Paul's epistles follow this pattern, with the following exceptions. Paul replaced the bland greeting of inquiry about health with a salutation combining Christian grace and Hebrew peace. His thanksgiving was likewise more than a formality; it was a sincere expression of gratitude for the well-being of his congregations.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)

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Paul did far more than write business memos. Paul saw himself as an overseer appointed by God. Any business references are secondary.

what makes you think it was a business? I see no evidence apart from the fact that all of modern religion is essentially a way to earn a living. I know smaller Pastors such as my own Pastor Joe Aragon at Tha Myx Church needs to work a day job to supplement what little he gets from the church...basically just supplies and an occasional gas voucher. His day job is a gang Outreach Coordinator with the State of Colorado. Paul was a tent maker. There appears to be little evidence that Paul was in any way in it for growing a business. He felt led to spread the good news of the Gospels to the non Jew. In Pauls mind, the messenger was the message. I believe that is still the case.Perhaps it would be the same as if we sought to spread the message of good works and personal accountability to every soul on earth. Is Jesus important any more or is good works for good works sake enough?Which leads to a question: Was spreading the early church throughout the land seen by anyone as a business? The truth was told and not sold.What is the difference between a business and free shareware? What message are we sharing?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I wouldn't call it irrelevant. The power of Jesus is, in my opinion, a matter of Who He is and not what we did with the brand. I will as a Christian take responsibility for the wrongs done by our religion, but I also believe that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ was and is the defining moment in the very History and Destiny of our planet.Thats my beliefs, however. You are talking of the evidence that History shows us. And I concur.I know you think that excusing bad behavior on original sin, or a devil,or the flesh is in your mind a cop out.I believe that we all are responsible, and that we collectively become and live out the decisions that we make.I will argue something that you have brought up before. You say that Saul becoming Paul was not a great transformation.I would argue otherwise and would further argue that the changes and transformations within us today are not based solely on what we do but are made great through the living Christ. His life was relevant and His death, burial, and resurrection also were quite relevant.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?

I believe in One God because it logically makes sense. Only One is needed. Were I to believe that no God were needed, I would have faith in myself, you, and all the rest of us. I was raised Methodist, but until I was around 30, I never thought much about God---apart from cartoon images of an old man. I understand most of the arguments. Belief is illogical unless one has a reason or even a need to believe. Apparently many people don't.When I became a believer, it happened suddenly. I dont recall wanting anything to happen because I was unaware that I would or even could feel any different.I thought it odd, however, that these people did nothing but talk about God and Jesus and actually enjoy it as much as the rest of us would enjoy a football game and talking about the players.

True. Although many of us agree on some points-- yes. that would be Christianity. No. some of us believe that truth is not revealed but is chosen through logic, reason, and reality. I personally believe that it is also revealed by God through the Holy Spirit. It is what it is.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Let me see if I have the basics:
1) One side believes it is important for humans to commune/relate to God. The other side says it does not matter since we have been given instructions in the stories. Whether the stories are factual or not is irrelevant according to one view. Content is more important than Source. I would argue that it is important to my faith to believe that God is interactive with humanity.Critics may scoff and say that without evidence, such a belief is ludicrous and is a commonly made up story over the years.Others may say that this is not just a story---this is reality. God does exist. God is interactive. We believe this because we believe in the story of Jesus Christ.I was taught that belief is the cornerstone of faith. Critics would argue that actions speak louder than words. Without evidence, we have nothing...they would assert.

Lets break the Creed down sentence by sentence and discuss it. In other words, there is One God and humans didnt make Him up. Critics argue that there is no evidence...oh well Thus Jesus was also before time, creation, reality as is God. Jesus is in essence Gods human character displayed. (Though some Christians disagree) jar loves the "was made man" part...whereas most other Christians are more impressed with the divinity than the humanity...im somewhat in the middle. This is very important to my chapter of club christian. The death, burial, and resurrection contain the power of creation and salvation. jar thinks the life of the human prophet was the lesson...showing us all how to be responsible and help others. What do you think, Tangle? Apart from not believing any of this stuff...do you believe that Jesus as a character in the stories is important for being human or for being God? Is the second coming important to anyone? It gives me hope that no matter how bad things get, God will fix them.
Critics may say it is a problem because many Christians do not accept personal responsibility for making earth a better place and are just waiting for the bus to take them out. The presence of God ...the helper...the comforter...critics call Him the spook. the woo. the fairytale magic. I call Him life. Love. Reality. In theory all Christians should agree. All those whom God has chosen should be in one accord. Who knows, Tangle...maybe you are included in that group even if you dont believe a word of it...Critics say a God who picks and chooses is evil. I maintain that it is we who chose. God merely knew what we would choose before we did...Critics say that makes God evil. I don't buy their arguments. Besides...if i am right it is irrelevant what they complain about. again...reality prevails.

Yes. Everything.That being said, I personally believe that God created the possibility of evil and that evil was then actualized through the choice of Lucifer...who then promptly fell.I think I know where your train of thought is going on this one, however....

Where I differ from you is that I dont believe God is "complete" as you suggest.
God is good. Jesus is and was "complete" in that being complete means being potentially both good and evil---as all humans are. We become the decisions we make. All of us fail. Jesus could have failed, but chose to succeed 100%. He was given this ability, but it was His choice every day. We are not as strong as Jesus, but--and i agree with you--we always must try. To say that the Creed is irrelevant is not a good decision, in my mind. Do you believe that the Creed is irrelevant in comparison to our decisions? Are you suggesting that perhaps the only thing relevant on a daily basis is Who He is, who We are, and our response to this truth?

Not true. The New Testament climaxed with the resurrection...which spread through the people as a progressive revelation of new hope. In a sense Jesus has already returned..in His Body which is we ourselves. How can you not believe in God on the one hand and then use the system the way it is to prove that He would not have done it this way had He existed? One side maintains that we are powerless without Him and need Him.The other side maintains that we are responsible for every success and/or failure that we cause.In my mind, our responsibility is His responsibility. In Him we breathe and move and have our being. But even if there were no way to prove the Bible or God, Tangle would be responsible for every success and/or failure, as would you as would I.The difference is that we believe God does it through us whereas Tangle believes its all a bunch of bollocks and we do it on our own!Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling

Actually I believe it is.Humans have the choice between following instinct or following conscience. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.