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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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ringo writes: Nonsense. The "fruits of the spirit" show up as often - if not more often - in people who don't have faith in God. The "fruits of the spirit" have a lot more to do with humanism than with religious faith. That's fine but it is a matter of faith as to whether the "fruits of the spirit" or acts of unselfish love, is a result of the voice of God in our hearts or the result of a chance collection of mindless particles deciding that it's a good idea, regardless of our religious beliefs.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes:
Who is to say that is the case. It is a matter of faith no matter which one we choose. I believe that acts of unselfish love, or even more so sacrificial love, happen because we respond to that still small voice of God in our hearts. You choose to believe, (as I understand it), that they happen as a result of an evolutionary process that began with mindless particles that has eventually produced beings that are capable of making those choices. In either case those are our beliefs and a matter of faith. So why do the mindless particles often produce more fruits than the voice of God?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: You're trying to make an equivalence that doesn't exist. Please stop doing it - I know it means you feel better about your beliefs but it's an error. C'mon, do you really think that saying that makes me feel better about my beliefs. It has absolutely no impact on how I feel about my beliefs.
Tangle writes: It's not a matter of faith that I think evolution is the force that created empathy, it's a matter of evidence. What you call evidence is simply a record of how empathy has evolved in the world. Mind you, the evidence as far as I can see only applies when there is some form of link in the gene pool. Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them. I'm fine with the idea that it has evolved over time, but whether it simply evolved from non intelligent root causes or an intelligent one is a matter of belief that can't be proven in either case. So, it is a matter of faith in what it is that we believe.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes:
Sure. The question I'm debating is why that evolutionary process came into existence.
People do not believe or have faith in biological processes.GDR writes: Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them.Tangle writes:
Wrong. There is a biog difference between reading about people suffering in Africa and feeling sorry for them as opposed to feeling sorry for them and opening up your wallet and doing something about it. No there isn't - it's exactly the same thing.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo to Phat writes: Of course. It's a little disturbing that you would even ask.Remember Matthew 25? I think it's been mentioned at EvC before. Jesus said we'll all be judged for feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoners, etc. - not praying for them. Praying when you should be doing comes dangerously close to mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" Sorry to butt in. I just wanted to add that I agree, but also in that there was no awareness that they had done those things for/to Jesus. They simply did them because that's where there hearts were, and not because they were thinking about some future benefit from God.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Phat writes: Did you ever think that the dark power that Lewis talks about might just be us? So whats so incredulous about that? Edited by GDR, : ?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Phat writes:
As I see it, that is the major problem with fundamentalism in a nutshell. It has become all about personal salvation. That is where the focus is. What that dose is to turn Christianity on its ear. It makes it all about me, and what will happen to me when I die. It is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. Are there any notable people that you can think of that believe that Christianity is about what one does and that everyone on the planet is free from damnation without need of a belief in a messiah? Yes, God through Jesus saves people from eternal damnation, or from separation from God, but that establishes the vocation that we are called to of infecting the world with God’s love. It is about being saved for a purpose here and now.Remember, that when the Gospels refer to the Kingdom of God or in Matthew the Kingdom of Heave that is not about going to heaven when you die. That is about the Kingdom that God established through Jesus for this world that began with the ascension. What happens in the next life will take care of itself and it is our hearts, not what we give intellectual ascent to that will determine our place in that life. Yes as we pray for in the Lord’s prayer, (save us from the time of trial), Jesus’ disciples can be considered righteous by God, but It isn’t up to us to figure out or worry about who is in or who is out. As Jesus said, in the Sermon on the Mount, Do not judge, or you too will be judged. Edited by GDR, : dose not does He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Phat writes:
There is still this focus on who is in and who is out. I don’t understand what you mean by the next great commission, but if you mean the life next life them maybe you have missed the point. I agree that we are called to infect the world with Gods love and that we dont know whom God may have given us so it is best to treat everyone the same. I don't believe that everyone is going to make it---and quite honestly I myself may end up being one of the casualties. In a sense, its a bit like natural selection. Only the worthy people survive to carry out the next great commission.Jar may well be right in that many of these people won't even be Christians. My point is that not everybody will survive the spiritual pruning that will take place. It isn’t about what we do, it is about our hearts. Deep down who is it that we love.? What or who de we serve? As you can see in my signature what God wants of all mankind is humble; kindness or mercy and justice. That isn’t just the call or message for Christians but for everyone and everyone is worthy of that call. We have the choice to reject it a little, a lot or even completely. Christianity is about Jesus the Messiah who was crucified, resurrected and enthroned by God. When this world is renewed it is for all creation but my belief is that there will be those that reject it, and God honours that decision. I know I’ve quoted CS Lewis form his book The Great Divorce but I’ll trot it out again. quote:I recommend Lewis’ book The Grat Divorce and also The Last Battle from the Narnia series as I believe that using metaphor he presents a really good understanding of all of this. Phat writes:
Not really. It is based on Jesus, His story, His message and His resurrection. What we do as Christians should flow from God’s love but it isn’t about doing things to earn God’s favour. I was blessed with growing up in a loving environment. Do you really think that I should be on an equal footing with someone who grew up in a cold abusive situation. Should I be treated on an equal footing with someone who grew up in a home where in order to make one’s father proud it is necessary to be a suicide bomber? Christianity is in fact based on what we do.I go with Paul. I’m not concerned about who is in and who is out. My concern is to be what God hopes I’ll be, and to be the person that He enabled me to be. Like everyone else I keep screwing up, but hopefully through all of this my heart is at least moving incrementally towards where God’s wants it to be. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Again, Phat, that's not really the case except for the very early church. It was Christianity becoming a State Religion with membership offering economic, political and power advantages that spread and grew the Christian Church and the Church was not spread based on truth but rather force. Christianity grew by soldiers killing all the priests of the other faiths and wiping out any signs of a different religion, by adopting those events that were popular and re-branding them as Christian, by requiring membership in a particular chapter to engage in commerce and by physically expelling and taking all the possessions of members of other religions. Christianity before becoming a State Religion was never more than a tiny irrelevant fringe cult. That's nonsense jar. It spread initially by those without power at all and then there was Paul who gave up power to spread the message often from prison. If it was such a fringe group then why were the Romans so concerned about it that they were having them executed , and if it was such small group how did it even manage to spread to Rome in the first place?
Rome and Christianity From that site" quote: So, it wasn't even legal for Christians to worship in Rome until 311AD. Christians were weak and powerless for roughly 300 years and it spread because it was a religion based on love and not power. You call yourself a Christian but i asked you before to name anything that you believe that differentiates you from any theist who believes in a god that is good. Actually from what I have read that you have written, it seems to me that you are closest to being a Buddhist who attends a Christian church.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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jar writes: Christianity, the tiny sects that were early Christianity were spread by individual marketers like Paul but it was a loose organization of a few small bands of folk in a few locations. Here is a web site for atheists that agrees that by 300 AD Christians numbered between 5 and 8 million. Luke Muehlhauser
jar writes: In other threads you have agreed that you don't believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus and see him more as a prophet as do Jews and Muslims.
And of course I have answered you many, many times. I explained that I am a Cradle Creedal Christian and a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian and believe in those statements of belief outlined in the Creeds. That distinguishes me from being a Buddhist. jar writes: But I also understand that belief and fact are not synonymous. I m also pretty sure that GOD, not that caricature we worship but the real thing will not be anything like what we talk about and not "good". GOD, if GOD really exists will be complete, not just good or bad or male or female. Complete. All religions are human attempts to ascertain the nature of a divine power. The point of Christianity is that Jesus perfectly embodied that nature so that we are able to understand that nature. It obviously has nothing to do with gender. Goodness is only what we generally understand it to be, which is loving, kind, just etc. As for being complete, that's just jargon that tells us nothing.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Not bad for a religion whose members were sporadically persecuted to the point of death.
Which even if correct (and I cannot imagine how any such figures might be determined) it is still not a really significant number. jar writes: ...which is the same message you can get from Buddah or Gandhi or numerous others. Why waste your time at church. Why not join Rotary and do all sorts of good works there without having to pay for building, clergy etc. No, I have said it does not matter whether or not there was a physical resurrection. The lesson I believe we are supposed to learn would be the same. The point is that you don't believe anything particular to the Christian church. You are a culturally Christian. You say that you are a "Cradle Creedal Christian and a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian". First off your beliefs do not fit the creeds. Things like "born of a virgin" and "rose again" aren't consistent with your beliefs. You say that you are a cradle Christian which I assumes means born into a Christian culture and maybe with Christian parents. I was born in a hospital which does not make me a doctor. There are many on this forum who were raised Christian and are now atheists or agnostics.
jar writes: Maybe you see it that way and often you are right, but I'd suggest that there are many who adhere to a religion simply because they believe it to be true and that it is the right thing for the world. I don't see any of the characters such as Paul in the NT benefiting from what they were doing, or that they were controlling anyone.
Kinda. All religions are human attempts to create a system for controlling populations. The point is that the Jesus mythos perfectly fits the various messages that Christians want to promulgate. But there is no universal portraiture or caricature of Jesus. What You post is entirely different than what Faith posts or Phat posts or I post. jar writes: The major point of Christianity is that we can see the true nature of God in the person of Jesus Christ. Sure religions are human creations but that doesn't mean that they got it completely wrong. And yes, I believe we are all clueless and must be clueless about what GOD might really be and that all the Gods we can discuss are just human creations.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: There was a thread GDR on what made a true Christian and the result was the only possible way to tell a true Christian was to ask them if they were a Christian. Sure, and I'm fine with calling you a Christian. You have grown up in a Christian society and have always attended a Christian church. (That is what I gather from what you have said and you can correct me if I'm wrong.) However at the same time your beliefs are consistent with a moderate Muslim, or even someone who would call themselves agnostic. Your beliefs themselves though are not anything that would define you as Christian, from what I can understand from what I have read that you have written on this forum. I don't see why you have a problem with being called a cultural Christian.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Well tell me where I'm wrong then.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: As I have said, I am a cradle Creedal Christian, I subscribe to those statements of Faith outlined in the Nicene Creed. I believe they are true; but I also understand that I could well be wrong and believe it is really unimportant whether they are factual or not. As I see it jar there are two aspects to the Christian faith. The first is that God has given humans the ability to understand right and wrong, good and evil, and wants us to infect the world with that point of view. We are in agreement on that but so are people of other faiths and non-faiths as well for that matter. The second aspect is the Christian narrative. It is the story of God reaching out to hearts and minds of people, and in this case one small beaten up tribe in the Middle East. The OT tells the story of this people with all their triumphs, but even more so of their failures. The climax of that part of the narrative is Jesus Christ. It is the life, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Jesus that is the basis for the Christian narrative. Slowly through the narrative we can see a progressive revelation of how it becomes less and less about trying to figure out how to get God to do what we want Him to do ,and more and more about what we can do to serve Him. This comes to a head in the Gospels in places like the Sermon on the Mount or Matthew 25. It is also in the OT as you can see in my signature. If Jesus is simply a man, (as I recall you saying), who lived and died like anyone else never to be seen again, then the Gospel stories aren't good news only good advice. On top of that, as I have said before, it shows Jesus as being delusional, with the idea that He could replace the Temple by forgiving sins, and saying essentially that He was embodying Yahweh's return to His people. Christianity is the belief that Jesus got it right and this belief is vindicated by God with the resurrection.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: If Jesus is simply a man, (as I recall you saying), who lived and died like anyone else never to be seen again, then the Gospel stories aren't good news only good advice. On top of that, as I have said before, it shows Jesus as being delusional, with the idea that He could replace the Temple by forgiving sins, and saying essentially that He was embodying Yahweh's return to His people. Christianity is the belief that Jesus got it right and this belief is vindicated by God with the resurrection.jar writes:
I’m pretty much with you here except that while I agree that He was fully human He was unique.
Again, you still are misrepresenting my position. Let me try again.What I have said is that Jesus while living here on the earth among us was fully human. Not part human/part god but purely and totally and only human. What I have said is that I see no real sacrifice if it is a God dying, a God being resurrected, a God ascending but the idea of a God becoming simply, fully, completely human, being born as a human child unable to focus his eyes, to feed himself, to control his bowels to even turn over by himself; becoming simply, fully, completely human with no knowledge, having to learn how to think, how to speak, how to get along with others, how to earn a living, how to put on clothes; becoming simply, fully, completely human suffering from bugs, fleas, rash, pain, hunger, doubt, fear, confusion; becoming simply, fully, completely human being whipped, sentenced to die, nailed to a cross with no assurance of resurrection other than human faith; that is a real sacrifice. jar writes: I believe it is crucial to the narrative and it also depends on what you mean by Jesus being God which brings up the whole idea of the trinity.
What Jesus was before his birth or after the resurrection is a different issue. I believe that Jesus was God before his birth and after the resurrection but again, I really don't think that is an important part of the narrative.jar writes:
I wouldn’t quite see it as Jesus telling us how to behave but as telling us and showing us where are hearts should be and assuring us that we have the Holy Spirit to be with us in that journey. (That may be nit picking.) It is Jesus life that tells us how to behave.It is Jesus the simply, fully, completely human man that is resurrected that tells humans there can be life after death. I agree that the resurrection is evidence of what is in store for creation, but I suggest that it is more than that. Death is the ultimate power that evil holds over us. The Romans used the power of evil to maintain their power. The ultimate threat was crucifixion. The resurrection shows that evil does not have the final word. I’ll say how I see it and we’ll see where we agree or disagree. I think it is important that we see Jesus as fully man or we do lose sight of the sacrifice and understanding that we have of the nature of God. I also see Him as being fully God but I think that to understand that we have to go to the first chapter of the Gospel of John. quote:So here we have Jesus who was fully man yet who embodied the Word of God that existed before the dawn of time. The Israelites had for generations anticipated the return of Yahweh to them, and many of them also had anticipated a human messiah that would somehow save them from the yoke of tyranny of a series of brutal oppressors who at that time were the Romans. Jesus understood His God given vocation to be the one through whom God would fulfill these two strands of Jewish prophesy. I contend that He came to this understanding of His vocation through the study of the Hebrew Scriptures, through prayer and through His understanding and observations of human nature. I also believe that He came to a belief, not knowledge, that somehow God would see Him through death and out the other side. He often referred to Himself as the Son of Man which is an obvious reference to Daniel 7 where the one like a Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days and given dominion over the Kingdom of God, (or as Matthew has it the Kingdom of Heaven), which was for both now but also for eternity. I contend that it is clear that Jesus did not have supernatural knowledge of the resurrection. If He had, then the prayer in Gethsemane where He prays that He not have to go into Jerusalem and do what He was going to do doesn’t make sense. He knew what the punishment was for someone who upset the powers that be with such actions. He was upsetting everyone from the Romans, the Pharisees, the zealots and everybody but the lower classes. It is so telling how God always seems to work through the powerless. He chose a lowly Middle Eastern tribe and then he chose a poor bastard child to reveal Himself to the nations. If the resurrection didn’t happen, then Jesus got it all wrong, and if He got that wrong it does make Him delusional as I said. If however, as I personally am convinced, that Jesus was bodily resurrected, then we can know that Jesus did represent the true nature of God, we can know that ultimately good does fully defeat evil, we can know that this world is not going to end in some cataclysmic way but will be renewed and we can know that what we do to love and look after our nieghbours, our enemies and our world matters eternally.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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