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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There are lots of idi/otic Republicans. Like a lot of those in Congress right now.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No great debate. Just find the evidence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: I would bet you anything the 14th amendment was not originally intended to apply to noncitizens. And as usual you would lose. The 14th Amendment was adopted after the Civil War precisely because a segment of the population was being denied citizenship and protection under the laws. They were denied the right to vote, to marry people not of their own race, access to schools and education, were not allowed to eat in many places and a whole host of other injustices. The whole point of the 14th Amendment is that everyone in the US should be granted equal protection under the law and access to due process regardless of their citizenship status.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It applied to people who were born here.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
$50, OK then.
No great debate. Just find the evidence. We still need to agree terms on what counts and who gets to arbitrate. I say the following: a) The opinions of the drafters counts highest, followed by those those that voted for it and the acting President equal second, followed by the opinion of courts third and the views of constitutional experts and historians lastly. b) The opinions of courts closer to the ratification have priority - since they are closer to the 'culture of intention' than the later ones. Once the evidence on either side has been presented the arbitrator decides who has made the best case and who wins the bet. We will then donate the money to the charity in such a way as can be verified by all three parties (and better, everybody). My charity I'd ask you to donate to, should I win the bet would be Muscular Dystrophy Association. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sounds like a good plan for a debate but I don't want to debate. If you can produce the evidence just please do so.
And if you don't mind I'd rather send the money to you because I'm on so many charity call lists already it's driving me to distraction. You can send it wherever you want. If I win I don't care about the money anyway, just the topic.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Sounds like a good plan for a debate but I don't want to debate. If you can produce the evidence just please do so. OK. But in the interests of either party squirming out of the bet on the grounds the evidence 'isn't good enough' we still need an arbitrator to make the call. Who do you say? Understanding your concerns of bias, I tried to suggest a number of people with whom I have had disagreements either politically or religiously.
And if you don't mind I'd rather send the money to you because I'm on so many charity call lists already it's driving me to distraction. Haha, I know that feeling. But yes, that should work. I'll honour my agreement and donate to a worthy cause in the UK.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It means (it may be argued) that a Muslim child born in Iraq may be denied entry but a Christian one permitted entry (though I think the actual wording may protect Trump on this). Trump talked about doing this, but I don't see anything in the order that can be challenged on that basis, and to date, I am not aware of, say Christian Syrians being admitted when their Muslim counterparts were refused entry. How might the argument be made? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Id go with Coyote.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Trump talked about doing this, but I don't see anything in the order that can be challenged on that basis, and to date, I am not aware of, say Christian Syrians being admitted when their Muslim counterparts were refused entry. How might the argument be made? The argument, and I agree it is something of a stretch goes (I believe) something like this: From section 5(b) of the Executive Order:
quote: Given most refugees now, and in the forseeable future are applying from Muslim majority countries, prioritizing religious-based persecution claims but only so doing for those cases where the religion is a 'minority religion' may well be not discrimination against a specific religious group prima facie, it could be construed as de facto discrimination against Sunni Muslims.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It applied to people who were born here. The citizenship clause applies to people who were born here. The rest of the 14th amendment applies equally well to at least all US citizens regardless of where they were born. Now to your chagrin, much of the 14th amendment (but not all) also applies to "persons" despite the fact that the word citizen was available but was not used. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual's country of nationality. Thanks. Given the text, and what Trump has said in public about prioritizing Christians, I do not find the argument a stretch at all. If I were filing a brief I would certainly make that argument. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
"Persons" was probably used because one of the problems that the amendment addressed was the noncitizen status of some people born in the country, blacks in other words. So that has to be taken into account in this discussion. There is no reason to think that foreign noncitizens were intended.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I've sent him a PM. I'll rally my arguments and present them here at such a time as he consents.
If he denies, I'll probably bring them anyway, but the bet will be considered null and void.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Mod, I'm afraid I have to sleep for a while, so I won't be able to respond until later. This happens to me a lot these days, sudden sleepiness.
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