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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
ringo
Member
Posts: 16142
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 1546 of 1677 (847347)
01-21-2019 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1544 by Phat
01-21-2019 12:36 PM


Re: Mad At Childishness
Phat writes:

I'm just overwhelmed with the responsibility. It leaves little time for relaxation, fun, and recreation in my life. Why should I spend every waking moment working without pay for a Mob Boss who won't put His weight into the situation?


You're still overthinking. I asked you to do ONE thing that would take a minimum of time and involve no risk to you.

And remember that the whole scenario is an analogy for God. If YOU are obligated to do the right thing, why not God, who does supposedly have the power to do all things at all times for all men?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1544 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 12:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1547 of 1677 (847349)
01-21-2019 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1493 by Phat
01-19-2019 4:04 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
Lately Ive been studying the opposing views than my own. I ordered a book by Bart Ehrman. Misquoting Jesus and am forcing myself to confront it. ...

I'm rereading an orthodox classic that shows how the church has been compromised by the rejection of Bible inerrancy and accommodation to the world on history and science, and calls us back to inerrancy. This is Francis Schaeffer's The Great Evangelical Disaster written in 1984. Perhaps you feel you understand this perspective already, or maybe you've even read the book, but if not I'd recommend it as antidote to the heretics like Bart Ehrman. Unfortunately what Shaeffer was warning about has only become much worse since then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1493 by Phat, posted 01-19-2019 4:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1548 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 2:10 PM Faith has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12045
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1548 of 1677 (847351)
01-21-2019 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1547 by Faith
01-21-2019 1:58 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
See if this link works for you. Remember my story about me and my 3 friends? This is one of them now...his first sermon.
https://www.facebook.com/...956546450/videos/522105248298022

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1547 by Faith, posted 01-21-2019 1:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1549 by Faith, posted 01-21-2019 2:50 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1549 of 1677 (847357)
01-21-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1548 by Phat
01-21-2019 2:10 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
Heard a couple minutes of him preaching. What's the point though? You say nothing about the book I mentioned.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1548 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 2:10 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1551 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 5:41 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1550 of 1677 (847359)
01-21-2019 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1536 by Granny Magda
01-21-2019 11:24 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
What a coincidence then, since there was obviously no stage trick that Phat experienced.

This may seem obvious to you, despite your not having been there, but it is far from obvious to me.

Based on what? A bunch of young guys coming back late from a church gathering staging this thing? For whom? Phat's report shows no such nonsense.

I also heard a chipmunky voice once, commenting on my belief in Jesus Christ, but it didn't have an echoing quality. It sounded like it came from the air a few feet from me.

The echoing quality seems to be a feature of the "dual voice" effect. What you describe there is something else entirely. It sounds indistinguishable from simple voice-throwing.

I was alone in my apartment at night. Who would be throwing the voice? And why? I was silently praying, the chipmunky voice commented on that fact.

Another time I heard a deeper voice that did echo, like it was inside a steel drum.

The "voice from inside a box" trick is yet another well-worn ventriloquist's trick.

You'd have to imagine a ventriloquist following me around and hanging around outside my place, a duplex I was living in years after the event mentioned above. I'd have heard footsteps outside. Again it was at night and I was praying. The voice mentioned a woman all the churches were already praying for, a popular Christian woman who was discovered to have cancer while pregnant with her fifth child. The voice simply said her name. Your theory is just impossible. This was a voice from another realm, not from a ventriloquist standing outside.

Yes I was alone in both cases. I would have mentioned the presence of anyone else.

I'm guessing that the voices wouldn't have been audible to anyone else, but I have no way of knowing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1536 by Granny Magda, posted 01-21-2019 11:24 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1575 by Granny Magda, posted 01-22-2019 4:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12045
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1551 of 1677 (847370)
01-21-2019 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1549 by Faith
01-21-2019 2:50 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
I ordered two books on Amazon, in the tradition of looking at both sides of an issue. I read a lot of stuff...and I read as much pro as I do the con. My church friends like Mike, who by the way feeds the homeless and gives out spare change...what little he himself has...tell me to quit wasting my time reading what they call doctrines of demons. I reply that I can't help it...it is my nature to question rather than ignore. I would never make a good witness for believers and church folk, but I think that God may someday want me to reach the ones who are unimpressed by scripture. I am learning both sides of the debate...mainly by listening to my educated critical and skeptical online friends here. I told Mike that had I not experienced some of the things(like our experience) that I did I likely would doubt that God was real and that my belief was sound. As is, I question it and am unafraid to do so...I simply must hear the counter-arguments. Were it not for the fact that I made a very adult decision to ask Jesus into my heart, and were it not for the events such as hearing the voices so clearly, audibly, and feeling my hair stand on end back in 1995 (or so) coupled with a few other subjective experiences which impressed upon me the reality of Gods involvement, I likely would be another one of EvCs former Christians who once believed but now do not. I pray often but have had more than a few periods where I no longer did so.

The two books I ordered in the mail are
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Ehrman, and Misquoting Truth: A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" by Timothy Paul Jones

I may not buy every orthodox teaching hook line and sinker, but I don't buy many of the counter-arguments either. I will likely get around to reading Schaeffer one of these days...I have ten days to recover from my eye operation and have nothing but time. I don't know if I will be able to read though. Audiobooks may be one solution.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1549 by Faith, posted 01-21-2019 2:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1552 by AZPaul3, posted 01-21-2019 5:53 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1554 by Faith, posted 01-21-2019 8:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3762
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 1552 of 1677 (847371)
01-21-2019 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1551 by Phat
01-21-2019 5:41 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
I have ten days to recover from my eye operation and have nothing but time.

Maybe I was not paying attention. Did not hear about this.

Nothing too serious I hope. You got any ocular ninja proteins?

Here have some.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1551 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 5:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1553 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 6:13 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12045
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1553 of 1677 (847374)
01-21-2019 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1552 by AZPaul3
01-21-2019 5:53 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
Remember our EvC member Raphael? (One of the ninja turtles) He became a Pastor. I always liked discussions with him...he was so polite. Thanks for the proteins, by the way. I need healthy food in between my attempts at fasting to lower my sugars.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1552 by AZPaul3, posted 01-21-2019 5:53 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1554 of 1677 (847377)
01-21-2019 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1551 by Phat
01-21-2019 5:41 PM


You shouldn't even be in that church
It's SO hard for me to get out of here for good. I really want to, I have other things I want to do with my time. But there's always something I want to come back and respond to.

..tell me to quit wasting my time reading what they call doctrines of demons. I reply that I can't help it...it is my nature to question rather than ignore. I would never make a good witness for believers and church folk, but I think that God may someday want me to reach the ones who are unimpressed by scripture.

Because of course you yourself are "unimpressed with scripture." You've said this and so much else that puts you at odds with orthodox traditional Christianity, and members of your own church challenge you on it frequently, as you've told us many times. Therefore, what I keep thinking is that your church should put you through an official disciplinary procedure in which they lay down the principles of the faith that you disbelieve and challenge, ask you to repent and then excommunicate you when you don't. Churches really should not keep people in their congregations who reject any part of the doctrinal truths they stand by, because it is extremely important to keep "the unity of the faith" and that means holding to the same doctrines as a body, which include Bible inerrancy in any truly orthodox church.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1551 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 5:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3762
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 1555 of 1677 (847381)
01-21-2019 11:25 PM


Here you go world. Behold the very reasons religions are poison.

A man is searching for answers only his own conscience can fulfill.

And the intolerant religionist's advice to that searching soul is this:

Stand trial in your church for your questions of conscience. If they should find what they consider to be error in your questioning (as they should with ANY man of just conscience and principle) then, so says the totalitarian religionist, they should threaten you, kick you in the ass and out the door.

My advice would be different:

Do, indeed, seek to challenge your church. If they should threaten you with any kind of censure then you should leave on your own accord. Leave that church behind. They are not worthy of your intellect.

Continue searching. Continue reading. Continue exploring, questioning, arguing with yourself and others until you find the home you seek or die trying.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1556 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 2:58 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1557 by vimesey, posted 01-22-2019 4:20 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1556 of 1677 (847385)
01-22-2019 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1555 by AZPaul3
01-21-2019 11:25 PM


it's gone way beyond searching by now
Phat does not present himself as at all open to the tenet of Biblical inerrancy. If he's searching it's gone on a very long time and he's very aware of the different positions on the subject. He's rejected the traditional view in pretty certain terms. Disciplinary procedures would give opportunity to consider the various positions very carefully and come to a clear conclusion.

He has clearly stated that he disagrees with the many people in his church, including the pastor, who have many times told him he is in the wrong. But they don't do anything about it. He's reported many instances of their attempts to set him straight, which he refuses to accept. He's had plenty of time for any searching. He understands the position of the church. It sounds like they are a traditional church but it's possible they aren't since their overall views haven't been stated. But if they are then they are in the wrong not to discipline him and come to a clear decision about his position of disagreement with them. Christianity is a body of knowledge. If you don't believe in important elements of the faith then you shouldn't continue in a fellowship with people who do.

I know of three disciplinary procedures in two churches. In two of them the person repented and stayed, one repenting of adultery and being reconciled to his wife, and the other I'm not as clear about but I think it was the person accepting some kind of treatment for drug addiction or something like that. In another case the woman left before the public part of the disciplinary procedure came up, after private sessions with the elders in which she refused to repent.

These were personal sins, not disagreements with doctrine, but a really strong objection to doctrine such as Phat expresses should be treated similarly. He is at odds with the church's confessional faith held by many others as he has quoted them, and even the pastor. This can only make for chaos in a church. Sure he's welcome to go on searching as he desires... somewhere else.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1555 by AZPaul3, posted 01-21-2019 11:25 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1558 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2019 5:22 AM Faith has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 930
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.1


(2)
Message 1557 of 1677 (847386)
01-22-2019 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1555 by AZPaul3
01-21-2019 11:25 PM


Absolutely right.

It's interesting isn't it. One of the key tenets of that particular brand of faith is that God gave man free will. And here they are, looking to stamp it out.

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1555 by AZPaul3, posted 01-21-2019 11:25 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1561 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 10:40 AM vimesey has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6616
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1558 of 1677 (847387)
01-22-2019 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1556 by Faith
01-22-2019 2:58 AM


Re: it's gone way beyond searching by now
Faith writes:

Christianity is a body of knowledge.

Ha, that's funny - Christianity is a body of dogma not knowledge.

Nothing more than club rules. But it is a body were doubt is ok - at least the more normal ones. You extreem cultists have your own silly rules, so I agree, he really needs to find a less stupid cult to belong to.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1556 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 2:58 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1559 by Phat, posted 01-22-2019 7:05 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 1560 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 10:37 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12045
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1559 of 1677 (847390)
01-22-2019 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1558 by Tangle
01-22-2019 5:22 AM


Re: it's gone way beyond searching by now
tangle writes:

Christianity is a body of dogma...

true. If Jesus were but another man in History Christianity would be nothing more than talk. As Jesus Himself asked Peter...Who do You say that I am? So my ongoing question is whether Christianity is about what we do (as jar maintained) or about who Jesus is and through that confession what we are empowered to then do.. GDR argues that is about Christ and not the Bible....but can the two be seperated? You (tangle) may argue that the issue is really about what we humans do in reality rather than through cultish dogma....so it all becomes a question of whether God exists and is the source of our empowerment. Christians believe in Jesus for that reason...in that you can have a relationship with a man rather than a cloud or a universe or an empty belief. Does that make any sense? I type on my android as a blizzard rages outside and we get ready for my 8am retinal vitrectomy to save my left eye. I cant afford to embrace fantasy...i need real assurance.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1558 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2019 5:22 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1568 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2019 2:04 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1560 of 1677 (847396)
01-22-2019 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1558 by Tangle
01-22-2019 5:22 AM


Re: it's gone way beyond searching by now
Yes it is a body of dogma, which is a body of knowledge, in the case of Christianity, facts and principles given by the revelation of the Bible. The knowledge can be refined, but it can't be contradicted.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1558 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2019 5:22 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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