Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,888 Year: 4,145/9,624 Month: 1,016/974 Week: 343/286 Day: 64/40 Hour: 5/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 718 of 1163 (793908)
11-07-2016 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 712 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2016 3:01 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
Australia's marsupials 'have American roots' - BBC News
Strong outward diversity exists in two different animals even though these are the same "kind". Having the same DNA markers and same common ancestor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 3:01 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 725 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 3:28 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 720 of 1163 (793911)
11-07-2016 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 717 by PaulK
11-07-2016 3:13 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
I explained myself. I don't believe humans evolved from primitive chordates. That then is a strawman argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by PaulK, posted 11-07-2016 3:13 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 727 by PaulK, posted 11-07-2016 3:33 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 721 of 1163 (793913)
11-07-2016 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 719 by PaulK
11-07-2016 3:21 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
Let me clarify , I was referring to marine conditions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by PaulK, posted 11-07-2016 3:21 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 723 by PaulK, posted 11-07-2016 3:25 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 722 of 1163 (793914)
11-07-2016 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 714 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2016 3:05 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
You say: "As soft-bodied bilaterians, things like, say, Dickinsonia do seem like plausible precursors to bilaterians with exoskeletons, with species with cataphract armor as an intermediate stage."
Please post your evidence. what are your sources?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 3:05 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 742 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 9:51 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 726 of 1163 (793918)
11-07-2016 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 702 by Theodoric
11-06-2016 6:27 PM


Re: The bible: 14 pairs
Context is pretty clear. Its referring to breeding pairs of every kind. That is what Noah did. He brought breeding pairs of every kind onto the boat. Some kinds he brought on 7 breeding pairs, some kinds, just one breeding pair. I don't see any clear restriction to only one pair in Genesis 6 and 7.
Bring on breeding pairs from every kind.
Sometimes seven breeding pairs, sometimes one breeding pair.
It's splitting semantic hairs to see any contradiction there. The bible was not a legal document.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 702 by Theodoric, posted 11-06-2016 6:27 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2016 12:42 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 728 of 1163 (793920)
11-07-2016 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 725 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2016 3:28 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
That argument is from evolutionary assumption. You cannot use the unproven theory of evolution as evidence for evolution. You also need to start giving evidence for your statements. My argument is proven from recent research of Australian marsupials. Two vastly outwardly different breeds can have the same genetic structure. In creationist terms this speaks of rapid diversity of the same kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 3:28 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 3:48 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 730 by Pressie, posted 11-07-2016 4:27 AM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 731 by Pressie, posted 11-07-2016 5:30 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 732 of 1163 (793926)
11-07-2016 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 729 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2016 3:48 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
you say evolution has been proved it, but there exists no core evidence for the theory of evolution.
Nearly every modern organism has more coding genes than a prokaryote, therefore evolution needs to prove that unique coding genes can be produced in nature. The only evidence I have seen is a dormant gene whose function was re-introduced through a mutation. That is not a unique coding gene.
So evolution is without evidence for the sudden appearance of most phyla, and is without evidence for the basic process that explains the existence of nearly every organism as per evolutionary theory. That is quite a lack.
Transitional sequences sometimes do exist, but even this merely proves rapid outward adaptation. Most transitional sequences are unproven guesswork that could very well represent the diversity of multiple kinds, rather than adaptation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 3:48 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by Pressie, posted 11-07-2016 6:52 AM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 740 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 9:33 AM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 743 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 9:55 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 734 of 1163 (793928)
11-07-2016 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 731 by Pressie
11-07-2016 5:30 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
Looking at your chart, yes there are geological layers. Yes there are always predominant organisms in each age. Yet some organisms survive in niche areas and the fossils of niche orgaisms will always be difficult to find. This is why the coelecanth was such a surprise, it wasn't seen in multiple layers and was therefore presumed extinct. Yet it was always there throughout the epochs. The predictability of creationism is that increasingly modern organisms will be found in the lower layers, and sometimes ancient organisms will be found living today. This is what we find.
I just don't see how some organisms being predominant in certain epochs is somehow proof of evolution. Please explain why your link is in any manner any proof of evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by Pressie, posted 11-07-2016 5:30 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by Pressie, posted 11-07-2016 6:56 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 737 of 1163 (793941)
11-07-2016 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 736 by jar
11-07-2016 7:46 AM


Re: The bible: 14 pairs
I dealt with your query. I said that there are OOPARTS. Other than that, the most likely place to find pre-flood humans and mammals is the pre-flood Siberian highlands. It's difficult to find them under the flood basalts. But that is the likely location of a pre-flood biome similar to the modern biome. This is where one finds traces of a "boreal cradle"and traces of pre-boundary angiosperms.
I have a clear answer. What is your answer to the lack of transitional fossils to explain the sudden appearance of most phyla in the Cambrian Explosion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 7:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 8:55 AM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 739 by RAZD, posted 11-07-2016 9:28 AM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 741 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 9:38 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 746 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2016 12:45 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 748 of 1163 (793974)
11-07-2016 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2016 9:55 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
Fair question. I was hoping the research into the similarities and differences of the possum, kangaroo, koala and wombats of Australia would have enough information to compare their genomes precisely with the American possum with which they share common ancestry. Under creationist theory, we would expect a near exact match between the genomes. The DNA structure of coding genes would be the same between all five genomes apart from a few point mutations and inactive genes since their separation from their American counterparts about 4000 years ago. Thus we have "Kinds" and then some breeds, much like dogs are related.
Under evolutionist assumptions, these organisms had a net gain of about 19000 unique coding genes since the original prokaryote, and so one would expect this process to continue over the last 30-80 million years of separation with their American counterpart. One would then expect the American possum to have a significantly different genome with approximately one new unique gene introduced in each lineage for every 30 000 years. ie one would expect about 1000 new unique coding genes in the American marsupial and the same in the Australian marsupials if evolution is a continuing process as claimed by evolutionists.
However I cannot find any clearcut genome comparison between the two lineages. I suspect they are too amazingly similar for evolutionary theory, but the information I have does not confirm or deny this.
Australia's marsupials 'have American roots' - BBC News
In conclusion, the fact that Australian marsupials share a common ancestor with an American possum does not help nor harm my view of rapid outward adaptation. It does help me in my discussions with other creationists but that is irrelevant in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 9:55 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 758 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 7:01 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 749 of 1163 (793975)
11-07-2016 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 746 by Theodoric
11-07-2016 12:45 PM


OOPARTS
I have no evidence that would be accepted on this site. So why post my information when I know beforehand my sources are unsatisfactory to you? It is one of those subjective situations like when you hear someone testify in trial. Some will believe, some wont. If anyone reads up about these OOPARTS, some will be very convinced, some wont. It's too subjective to be acceptable scientific evidence. Nevertheless these OOPARTS exist, and many including myself believe the eyewitness reports and other information presented in OOPARTS websites. Some ooparts are merely hoaxes, some ring true.
Some of those that ring true to me are the Sumerian seals which depict dinosaurs. The Egypt Narmer tablets which depict dinosaurs. And the so-called "lion" of Gobekli Tepe which looks more like a cynogathus. But there are many , many more of these Out Of Place Artifacts which are not studied by mainstream science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2016 12:45 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by PaulK, posted 11-07-2016 5:17 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 754 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2016 5:25 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 750 of 1163 (793976)
11-07-2016 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by Theodoric
11-07-2016 12:42 PM


Re: The bible: 14 pairs
I can see how some would read a contradiction into Genesis 6 and 7 because there is some ambiguity there. Legal documents are often written in such a way to as to avoid all ambiguity. The bible was not written like that. There is a lot of ambiguity if one isn't really interested in the prima facie meaning in verses in the bible. If you want to object to the bible you will always find the ammunition to do so. Those that truly want to seek out the truth will also find it in the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2016 12:42 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 751 of 1163 (793977)
11-07-2016 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2016 9:38 AM


Re: The bible: 14 pairs
In your eyes the primitive soft-bodied bilaterians, and the cataphract-armored intermediates may be satisfactory intermediates. But to supply evidence for your theory you would need fossils that more closely match each of those organisms that suddenly appeared in the Cambrian. That is one of the areas where evolutionary theory fails completely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 9:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-08-2016 12:27 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 753 of 1163 (793980)
11-07-2016 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 742 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2016 9:51 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
I see a lot of speculation in that first link but is there any particular organism in the Cambrian explosion that you feel the Anomalocaris evolved into? If you feel it was a precursor to most Cambrian life, then you would need a couple of intermediates along some sort of evolutionary path to make your point. Without intermediates it would be very easy to make the mistake of trying to find a relationship between unrelated species. ie it is easy to make evolutionary assumptions but one needs evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 9:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 6:29 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 755 of 1163 (793982)
11-07-2016 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 742 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2016 9:51 AM


Re: THE GREAT EVOLUTION FOSSIL FAILURE
Praecambridium - Wikipedia
Praecambridium sigillum is an extinct organism that superficially resembles a segmented trilobite-like arthropod,[1] though the majority of experts now place it within the Proarticulata [2][3]
Wikipedia references:
1. Glaessner, M.F.; Wade, M. (1971). "Praecambridium — a primitive arthropoda". Lethaia. 4 (1): 71—77. doi:10.1111/j.1502-3931.1971.tb01280.x.
2.Ivantsov, Andrey Yu. (2007). "Small Vendian transversely Articulated fossils". Paleontological Journal. 41 (2): 113. doi:10.1134/S0031030107020013.
3. Jump up ^ Ivantsov, A.Y. (2001). "Vendia and Other Precambrian "Arthropods"". Paleontological Journal. 35 (4): 335—343
My computer seems to have slowed and so I couldn't reply to all your links at once, they took some time to load. It seems that initially these precambrian fossils were seen as related to trilobites but the resemblance is seen as superficial. ie this species was found in lower layers and died out before trilobites became common in the same areas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 9:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2016 6:27 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024