Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response

I've read it.It grossly mischaracterises the opposition to Trumps order. It is certainly a fact that my objections from the start of the thread focused on people with valid travel documents. It is certainly a fact the court cases where Trump has lost also focus on such people. It is certainly a fact that such cases did not and could not happen under the Obama order.And you call me "LYING LEFTIST LOON" just for posting facts that you don't like.How "Christian"

In my first post to this thread I suggested that suspending the issuing of visas was likely legal and certainly better than what The Trump,administration did. Message 2In my second I raised the importance of having a reason for sudden action: Message 4When I finally got around to talking about refugees - and then only because New Cats Eye raised the issue, I said this: Message 114Anyone who says that I was objecting to the Trump order because of the effects on refugees, or that my objections would apply equally to the Obama order is just plain wrong.

Faith, you certainly suggested that Soros and CAIR should have been used in the cartoon, and that certainly suggests that you feel at least one of them should be blamed for the courts decisions.The fact that Trump's order is very likely unconstitutional somehow doesn't enter your consideration even though it has been discussed extensively in this thread.So, really, Dr. Adequate's reading of your post seems far from unreasonable and nothing you have said provides any valid reason to think otherwise. Indeed, your obvious hate of Soros and CAIR reinforces the reading.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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There is no doubt whatever that Trump's ban is constitutional.

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That certainly isn't true. In fact it probably isn't constitutional. As the discussion on this thread is shown.

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Why does the left have to reduce every considered opinion to a feeling? Calling a reasoned view of what Soros and CAIR do "hate" is childish and stu/pid, but unfortunately very effective with the Left who seem to be unable to think on any other level after decades of dumbing-down brainwashing.

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The evidence of this thread shows exactly who the victim of dumbed-down brainwashing is. Who was so blind that she couldn't see the differences between Trump's Executive Order and Obama's ?

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Gollygosharoony, what a lying post. I have no trouble "seeing the differences," as I said, they are irrelevant to the point I was making, which is well served by the example. You are allowed to disagree, but the straw man is out of order.

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The differences were obviously of great relevance to the point you were making since they are at the heart of many of the objections made to Trump's order - including mine - and to the constitutional question.

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Oh the ban is constitutional, it is very clear that the President has the right to keep aliens temporarily out of the country if he considers them to be a potential danger to the security of the nation

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It is certainly not clear that he can do so without due process. As you certainly ought to know by now. Especially as the vast majority of those affected - even if we count the tens of thousands of cancelled visas - are completely innocent.You can argue all you like that the U.S. should be arbitrary and unjust in it's treatment of non-citizens but that is hardly sane, common-sensical, constitutional or good.

Making assertions is easy. Especially for people like you who don't care about the truth. Let us not forget that when the order went out Green Card holders were detained, even though the law supposedly authorising the order did not apply to them. If you want to insist that the courts are wrong let's see you actually take on their decisions and show their errors.As for the rest isn't the vet from Glasgow a "legitimate exception" ? What consideration did she or anyone in a similar position get ?And if you are going to be honest the disruption was caused by Trump and his staff. They were the ones who decided to rush the order in and target people who were already in the air. Copying Obama's approach of suspending the issue of visas would be far less disruptive. And I made that point right back at the start of the thread.

I didn't impute any motivations to Trump in that post. But if Trump is bungling orders because he wants to "keep up momentum" maybe he should have another think. It is not as if an order to suspend processing visa applications could not have gone into immediate effect.

Playing Devil's Advocate ?Religious freedom has never been about giving a carte blanche to the religious. It has always been about not being persecuted or suffering unequal treatment for believing the "wrong" things. So there is an issue there, and Trump's tweeting about a ban on Muslims could come back to bite him.

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How is the latter achieved without doing the former?

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By NOT doing things like having Quakers whipped out of town or banning Catholics from holding political office. if you can't tell the difference between those and banning human sacrifice you have a problem.The key phrase is Freedom of Belief.

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What about banning someone who believes in banning Catholics on religious grounds?

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They can't be pre-emptively banned from office but they should be in a world of trouble if they tried to put that belief into practice.This isn't hard to understand.

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But, as I pointed out, a religious believer in the divine right of King George to rule would be banned from office, and Marxists would be turned away by immigration officials

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You will have to provide evidence for the first. I am not even convinced of the second although I doubt that Marxists would be a protected class.

The "stupidity" of the Founding Fathers hasn't managed to destroy America yet.Maybe you should give them a bit more credit.

I believe that your comments on Marxism were already covered by my previous post.

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What about someone who believes that the laws of their god super-cede all laws made by man?

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There are already people living in America making such claims. Naturally they can get in trouble when they disobey laws they don't like. But I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for simply believing it.

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Could Trump claim that it is valid to refuse such a person entry to the U.S. as they would not accept the rule of U.S. law?

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My view is that they should be asked if they would follow the law. If they refuse there is a valid reason to deny them entry that doesn't rely on discrimination. But then again, since it applies to some Christians (or more commonly "Christians") in a practical situation the question would never arise in those cases and the Religious Right would be complaining about it if entry were denied even with good reason.

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Is it always easy to understand?

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The basic distinction between belief and action ought to be. If you can't make that distinction then you have a serious problem.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

No National Security PurposeEven people who might be expected to support Trump are worried. Yoo's former colleague Jack Goldsmith goes further and suggests that Trump is trying to lose the court cases. Does Trump want to Lose

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Federal law gives the President the right to determine if there are national security issues involved; others' opinions are not included.

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Even if it were true that views of others - or the facts - have no legal force - there is nothing that prevents people from expressing those views. And in fact Freedom of Speech mandates that they do have the right to express those views.Whether you are right, however, is a matter for the courts and I think you will find that they have the sense to baulk at the complete deference to the President that you demand.

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If there are already rights granted for anyone to be in the country, from a green card to a visa or whatever, I would assume the travel ban would not apply to them.

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We already know that the order affected people with visas when they arrived in the country. We also know that the Trump administration tried to apply it to Green Card holders arriving in the country. We also know that tens of thousands of visas have been revoked under this order.Isn't it way past time time that you did less assuming and more paying attention to the discussion here ?