Paul, my friend. Appreciate it! And apologies, in a pretty busy season of grad school currently. But the studies go well! I have about a year left to go, fingers crossed. Haha.
Alas, I have not converted to secular humanism yet , but hey, always open to conversations about it!
I think at this point I am simply too curious, too skeptical, and too moved by the Jesus story to land anywhere else. But I'd like to think I do tend to exist in bit of a "grey area" of openness to alternate ideas!
I disagree with you that Jesus expected everyone to literally give everything up.
You can disagree till the cows come home. The early church believed it and they were the ones who knew Jesus personally.
Phat writes:
If anything, he went hard on the rich young ruler because money and wealth is what was holding him back.
I't's what's holding everybody back. If you keep anything back, even one of your two mites, you're rejecting Jesus' promise to take care of you.
Phat writes:
Had Jesus wanted everyone whom He encountered to surrender all of their worldly goods, he would have commanded Mary and Martha to leave their house.
How do you know they didn't? Remember, in the early church, all goods were owned in common by the members. Before you try to use that magic bullet to disprove what Jesus said, stop and think.
Phat writes:
He would have emphasized the message more literally to all people.
He did. The widow with two mites understood it. The disciples understood it. The early church understood it. The only one it isn't "literal" enough for is you.
Phat writes:
It also bothers me why you seem to think you can get off the hook simply by being an unbeliever.
Why does that bother you when I've explained it to you a dozen times? If there is no hook, why would I be on it? and if you believe there is a hook, why wouldn't you be on it?
Phat writes:
Evidence in and of itself does not determine reality.
Yes it does.
Yes it does.
Yes it does.
Evidence is the ONLY thing that determines reality. Period.
Phat writes:
Things are often not as they seem.
Which is EXACTLY why we need evidence to separate what IS from what seems to be. Jesus may seem real to you but He isn't.
Phat writes:
And again, for those who choose not to believe, how is it you can so confidently dismiss a Creator of all seen and unseen?
Again. I don't.
Why don't you read what I write?
Phat writes:
You seem to think that the origin of all reality comes from humans.
Of course it does.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The only one who is trying to avoid accountability is you.
It's time we put this distortion to rest once and for all.
And yet you don't. You keep lying, claiming that I am trying to avoid accountability. Stop it.
And then you come back every few days with the same old, same old attempt to avoid what Jesus told you to do. Stop it.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
For the sake of argument, we can discuss man's understanding of God. There is really no way to have a direct interview, although I would assert that a consensus regarding God's nature can be found among believers. For unbelievers (or non-believers) all that you can string together is spotty and scant evidence from quotes such as your one from Isaiah.
contrarian ringo writes:
The Bible is pretty clear what God embodies, despite your sanitized fantasies.
If you insist on indicting me, you had best take on many apologists. Can you stand up to them quote for quote?
Though I suppose you will attempt to indict the Creator of the universe for again allowing wars and deaths. As if He is supposed to stop the free will of autocratic humans and soldier pawns.
Edited by Phat, : spelling
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
The early church believed it and they were the ones who knew Jesus personally.
An interesting side bit: There are many serious believers who are now fleeing the Ukraine--giving everything up to flee the evil from the autocratic Putin. I will agree with you that few American Christians could handle such a situation without questioning or even losing their faith.
I't's what's holding everybody back. If you keep anything back, even one of your two mites, you're rejecting Jesus' promise to take care of you.
I wont disagree with you. It still puzzles me though why God uses a Canadian skeptic who is nearly an atheist due to lack of evidence (in his own mind) though I will agree that your heart is in the right place. My hope is that the church gets stronger even as the persecution of humanity increases.
Remember, in the early church, all goods were owned in common by the members.
I guess what holds me back is that I don't trust every single person in the church. Too many freeloaders would sign up just to get fed and sheltered. Why must Christians support the whole world when we ourselves don't have much? Oh, wait...I think I know your reply:
...you're rejecting Jesus' promise to take care of you.
*sigh*...then why the heck don't *you* give everything up and join us? It's not fair to see you all warm and comfy in your house while refugees pass you by! Unless of course you now live at the library!
Why does that bother you when I've explained it to you a dozen times? If there is no hook, why would I be on it? and if you believe there is a hook, why wouldn't you be on it?
Double standard. And yes, it annoys me. I've got to work on that flaw.
Evidence is the ONLY thing that determines reality. Period.
My prayer, then is that there will be enough evidence for you to quit holding back hoping for a secular humanist miracle in an otherwise fallen world.
You keep lying, claiming that I am trying to avoid accountability. Stop it.
And then you come back every few days with the same old, same old attempt to avoid what Jesus told you to do. Stop it.
I'm trying. I just don't like the idea that you are winning this argument without being persuaded to obey Jesus. I guess I had better worry about myself, however!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
There is really no way to have a direct interview, although I would assert that a consensus regarding God's nature can be found among believers.
Phat, Phat Phat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Think!
Look at the evidence.
If what you posted were true then there would be some evidence to support it, yet the reality is that there are literally dozens or hundreds of different major religions where each one has a different concept of what their god(s)'s nature(s) is. There is not even some universal "Christian" god. There is not even a universal description of God's nature to be found in the Bible stories.
Oh, I have. It is a fact that the majority of Christians do not limit God (or Jesus) to a character in a book. It is a fact that many more Christians believe that God hears their prayers than believe that there are many "god characters" in the books of the Bible or that God is merely a human creation.
Though many church denominations (what you call Club: Christian) have minor denominational disputes, most of the mainstream beliefs agree on the major tenets.
Which are: God, Creator of all seen and unseen is eternal, omnipotent, and predated time itself. The Nicene Creed spells it out. Jesus was and is Gods only begotten son.
Never mind the critics who claim that the Bible has scant evidence. For the majority of Christians, belief trumps "evidence." Reality is not limited to objective evidence. What you may label as fantasy, many Christians label as belief.
And never mind where you ever got the idea that God is not "good" but rather complete. That's far from mainstream. It is you and your stated beliefs that are the outlier.
About the only belief that you represent that has widespread validity is that we are Christians based on what we *do* and not only what we *believe*.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
But the vast majority of Christians are much like you Phat, willfully ignorant of what is actually written in the Bible stories and willfully ignorant of the actual history of Christianity and in total denial of reality in general.
And remember, Christianity might still be the largest current religion but it is very far from the majority religion.
You simply deny the facts and evidence which is fine as long as your goal is to remain ignorant.
There are many serious believers who are now fleeing the Ukraine--giving everything up to flee the evil from the autocratic Putin.
Oh come on. They're not "giving anything up". They're having it taken away from them by force.
Phat writes:
I guess what holds me back is that I don't trust every single person in the church.
It has nothing to do with trusting anybody in the church. It's about trusting Jesus. Ananias and Sapphira were killed by God for holding back.
Phat writes:
I just don't like the idea that you are winning this argument without being persuaded to obey Jesus.
And yet you're the one who is not persuaded to obey Jesus.
Phat writes:
Why must Christians support the whole world when we ourselves don't have much?
Because Jesus said so.
Phat writes:
*sigh*...then why the heck don't *you* give everything up and join us?
Read my lips : There is no Jesus!
Phat writes:
It's not fair to see you all warm and comfy in your house while refugees pass you by!
Fairness has nothing to do with it.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
If there is no hook, why would I be on it? and if you believe there is a hook, why wouldn't you be on it?
Double standard.
Not at all. Not even close. One standard, period: If you believe in Jesus, you should be doing what He said. If you don't believe in Jesus, it wou;d be stupid to do what He (supposedly) said.
Phat writes:
My prayer, then is that there will be enough evidence for you....
But there's ZERO evidence. And half the time you tell us there can't BE any evidence.
Phat writes:
... quit holding back hoping for a secular humanist miracle...
Just once, could you do me a favour and read what I write? I'm not hoping for any "miracle", as I've told you many, many, many times. I'm recognizing that we need to DO it ourselves because there isn't going to BE any miracle. Humanism isn't some vague hope. it's all there is.
Phat writes:
... in an otherwise fallen world.
There is no "fallen world". God said so Himself. The only thing that's fallen is your mind.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
™ Version 4.1
(1)
, but hey, always open to conversations about it!