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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
iano
Member (Idle past 225 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 226 of 309 (323736)
06-20-2006 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Iblis
06-19-2006 9:28 PM


Re: Limited Omnipotence
Hi Iblis

I would agree with what you say. Another way of saying it is to state that God can do anything which is consistant with himself. I often hear here that omnipotence means God can do simply anything at all. Which is not the case

But I don't see what that has to do with him being all knowing rendering our free will an illusion. Do you?


This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 309 (323823)
06-20-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Heathen
06-19-2006 5:50 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
CS writes:

By another definition, God is all knowing and we have free will.


can you explain how you arrive at this definfition, and how the contradiction is overcome?
rather than just asserting it.

I already did, its posted on this thread. Read the posts, that you didn't reply too, between me and PY and reply to those.

Start here on Message 135 and read PY's replies to me and mine to them. You could reply to my last post with points form each post to avoid posting multiple times and running out of thread room.

Thanks.


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 Message 215 by Heathen, posted 06-19-2006 5:50 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1062
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 228 of 309 (323828)
06-20-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 10:48 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
I'm not sure I can subscribe to PY's and your re-definition of omnicience, describing an eternity constantly in flux.

To me this is simply not omniscience, if there is any uncertainty, or any point at which everything is not known or anything is unknown, then we do not have omniscience.

The particular model of eternity this thread was aimed at was ianos view of eternity as a book, where the omniscient god can flick the pages in any direction at any time and see what was, what is and what will be.

But omniscience based upon extrapolation from what is known, to a 'possible' outcome does not equate to true omniscience to me. and It is not the definition of omniscience I am argueing against in this thread.


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 Message 227 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 309 (323833)
06-20-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Heathen
06-20-2006 11:22 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
I'm not sure I can subscribe to PY's and your re-definition of omnicience

No problem. I just wouldn't call it a "re-definition". The definition is simple yet complex.

quote:
omniscience: Having total knowledge; knowing everything

In knowing everything, can you know the unknowable?

Does total knowledge include things that cannot be known?

Enter the opinions on the definition of omniscience.

Yours and mine differ, but in our interpretation of what it actually means, I'm not re-defining it.

To me this is simply not omniscience, if there is any uncertainty, or any point at which everything is not known or anything is unknown, then we do not have omniscience.

I don't hold such a strong opinion on the definition of omniscience. I don't think the future is knowable in the sense described above (that there is absolutely no uncertainty).

But, if god is omnipotent, then they must have the ability to know the future in the sense described above. When god exercises this ability, our free will (fractionally or totally) is removed.

The particular model of eternity this thread was aimed at was ianos view of eternity as a book, where the omniscient god can flick the pages in any direction at any time and see what was, what is and what will be.

With that model, we do not have free will.

But omniscience based upon extrapolation from what is known, to a 'possible' outcome does not equate to true omniscience to me. and It is not the definition of omniscience I am argueing against in this thread.

Ok. If you ever start a thread on what omniscience really means or includes, then I'll post in it.

Like I typed earlier,

quote:
Using your(or iano's) defintion of omniscience, if we have free will then God is not all-knowing and if god is all-knowing then we don't have free will.

If I had to pick one or the other then I'd say that I have free will and god is not all-knowing. But I suscribe to a different definition of omniscience, and believe that god is all-knowing and I have free will.

I guess it is basically because I think I have free will and I wouldn't put limits on god's abilities. Although, you could be right that I am under the illusion that I have free will, I just don't believe that to be the case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 11:22 AM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 309 (323842)
06-20-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by jar
06-19-2006 6:13 PM


Re: God's capriciousness
Well, that would mean that any given moment, any given act, might or might not be subject to freewill. Freewill then becomes more or less a crapshoot, dependent on whether GOD has used Her ability of foreknowledge regarding that particular incident.

Yeah, but god could be making those dicisions to exercise her ability based on some criteria and not just a whim.

Because you have absolutely no idea of what GOD's perspective or reaction will be under any given set of circumstances or whether you are making choices or GOD has stepped in and removed freewill in this particular instance.

You would have no idea which acts were free and which were predetermined, but god would and could be basing it on good reasons. It doesn't have to include the randomness.


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 Message 220 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 6:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1062
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 231 of 309 (323843)
06-20-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 11:49 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
catholic scientist writes:

In knowing everything, can you know the unknowable?


If you know everything then nothing is unknowable.

catholic scientist writes:

But, if god is omnipotent, then they must have the ability to know the future in the sense described above.


I think I see what you're getting at, are you suggesting that God could choose not to know something? turn a blind eye so-to-speak?
is he then truely all-knowing? to me this is not omniscience.

If I tell you that I know what happens in a movie... when in fact I only have the ability to watch the movie but have not excercised that ability yet.. could you say that I know all about that movie?

catholic scientist writes:

With that model, we do not have free will.


hence this thread.

catholic scientist writes:

If I had to pick one or the other then I'd say that I have free will and god is not all-knowing. But I suscribe to a different definition of omniscience, and believe that god is all-knowing and I have free will.


well then it's not really omniscience then is it?

Omniscience means awareness of everything... Everything with no conditions placed upon it, no extrapolations from a known present to a possible future, no dependancies on a starting point. Just straight forward omniscience.. knowledge or awareness of everything, everywhere, at anytime.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 11:49 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

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Codegate
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 84
From: The Great White North
Joined: 03-15-2006


Message 232 of 309 (323844)
06-20-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Heathen
06-19-2006 6:38 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
Before moving on, I would like to suggest an alternative.

Is it not possible, since God is all knowing that he could see all possibilities the extend outward from the current timeline? If anything, all that is required for this to exist is for you to increase the power of God, which I don't believe any Xian would have an issue with.

Assuming there is an all powerful god, I don't have any issues at all with assuming that he has a complete knowledge of the full 4D universe and all potential permutations of it caused by free will.

The only thing that God doesn't know, is what choices we will make. However, he is fully aware of all possible outcomes of those choices.


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 Message 222 by Heathen, posted 06-19-2006 6:38 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 233 of 309 (323847)
06-20-2006 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 11:59 AM


Re: God's capriciousness
You would have no idea which acts were free and which were predetermined, but god would and could be basing it on good reasons. It doesn't have to include the randomness.

Could be, but how would anyone tell? It may not have to include randomness but how could we tell? From the human perspective, which is all we have to go one, it would be random, capricious.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 11:59 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1062
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 234 of 309 (323849)
06-20-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Codegate
06-20-2006 12:08 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
codegate writes:

Is it not possible, since God is all knowing that he could see all possibilities the extend outward from the current timeline?


entirely possible.. however that is not the world(God)view I was argueing against in this thread.

THe View that Iano (correct me if I'm wrong Iano) holds is that God knows what choices we will make (As he did with A&E in eden), he knows what the outcome will be. the existance of alternate possible timelines is irrelevant, as God knows which one we will follow.


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 Message 232 by Codegate, posted 06-20-2006 12:08 PM Codegate has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 309 (323851)
06-20-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Heathen
06-20-2006 12:07 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
If you know everything then nothing is unknowable.

I don't think that knowing everything includes knowing things that cannot be known.

I think that somethings are unknowable, like, the future.

I think I see what you're getting at, are you suggesting that God could choose not to know something?

Yes, except the opposite. God doesn't know the future because it is unknwable, but, being all-powerful, God could choose to know the future if he disired. Not that he knows the future until he decides to not know it.

is he then truely all-knowing? to me this is not omniscience.

I would say that it is truely all-knowing because I don't think knowing everything includes knowing the future.

If I tell you that I know what happens in a movie...

A movie is a bad analogy becuase its outcome is predetermined. The characters in the story do not have free will.

hence this thread.

Of course, I didn't read the OP and didn't see that you didn't want us to post what I originally posted, so... "My bad."

But yeah, if it is all predetermined then we don't have free will. What's so hard about that?

catholic scientist writes:

If I had to pick one or the other then I'd say that I have free will and god is not all-knowing. But I suscribe to a different definition of omniscience, and believe that god is all-knowing and I have free will.


well then it's not really omniscience then is it?

No, not accordind to your interpretation of the definition.

Omniscience means awareness of everything... Everything with no conditions placed upon it...

I agree.

Just straight forward omniscience.. knowledge or awareness of everything, everywhere, at anytime.

Aaah, but you just added some conditions, didn't you?

I leave the 'anytime' condition out of it and consider the future unknowable. I have no conflict with omniscience and free will.


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Codegate
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 84
From: The Great White North
Joined: 03-15-2006


Message 236 of 309 (323852)
06-20-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Heathen
06-20-2006 12:19 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
Creavolution writes:

God knows what choices we will make (As he did with A&E in eden), he knows what the outcome will be.

If this is what is being debated, then I have to agree with you 100%. If someone (be it God or anyone else) knows the exact outcome of a future event, then that event is not subject to free will.

Edited by Codegate, : No reason given.


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1927 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 237 of 309 (323855)
06-20-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Heathen
06-19-2006 4:29 PM


Is knowing the future enough to destroy free-will?
THe question is:
Does an all knowing God make free will an illusion?
My answer is:
Yes.

Jumping in eleventh hour here...

Why?

If tomorrow I see you jump in a lake, have I removed your free will?

How about if I then travel back to today throgh a convenient wormhole, have I removed your free-will?

How about if I then tell you that tomorrow you will jump in the lake?

In any of these scenarios, have I removed your free-will? (assuming it was there to begin with) Can God's "knowing" have such a damning effect on our free-will, even if he doesn't tell us what we are going to do? Note, I am only interested in God's knowing at this point. Imagine God isn't the creator, but just has omniscience...

Now, is your argument more to do with God being creator AND being omniscient that causes the problem?

Edited by cavediver, : Change of subtitle

Edited by cavediver, : Correct spelling in new subtitle


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 238 of 309 (323856)
06-20-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by jar
06-20-2006 12:12 PM


Re: God's capriciousness
You would have no idea which acts were free and which were predetermined, but god would and could be basing it on good reasons. It doesn't have to include the randomness.

Could be, but how would anyone tell? It may not have to include randomness but how could we tell? From the human perspective, which is all we have to go one, it would be random, capricious.

So it doesn't really make god capricious, it just makes god capricious from the human perspective. Of course you couldn't tell if it was random or not, but not knowing doesn't mean you should assume its random.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 12:12 PM jar has responded

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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1062
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 239 of 309 (323857)
06-20-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 12:24 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
catholic scientist writes:

God doesn't know the future because it is unknwable, but, being all-powerful, God could choose to know the future if he disired


But.. if God can know it... it's not "unknowable" is it?

catholic scientist writes:

I would say that it is truely all-knowing because I don't think knowing everything includes knowing the future.


to me 'everything' includes the future. so knowing everything must include knowing the future.

catholic scientist writes:

A movie is a bad analogy becuase its outcome is predetermined. The characters in the story do not have free will.

much like our existance... IF God knows 'everything' (including the future)

catholic scientist writes:

But yeah, if it is all predetermined then we don't have free will. What's so hard about that?


ask iano...

catholic scientist writes:

I leave the 'anytime' condition out of it and consider the future unknowable. I have no conflict with omniscience and free will.


is the future not part of 'everything'? is the past?

Edited by Creavolution, : tidied up quote


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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1062
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 240 of 309 (323861)
06-20-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by cavediver
06-20-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Is knowing the future enough to destroy free-will?
cavediver writes:

In any of these scenarios, have I removed your free-will? (assuming it was there to begin with) Can God's "knowing" have such a damning effect on our free-will, even if he doesn't tell us what we are going to do? Note, I am only interested in God's knowing at this point. Imagine God isn't the creator, but just has omniscience...

If God knows what will happen.. then there is nothing else that can happen. God knows that I will jump in a lake tomorrow.. that is what will happen. Regardless of my 'free will'. God can see. it is a given, it is the only outcome God knows that. (even if I don't)
I cannot affect the outcome, because according to the worldview in discussion here, the outcome is known. in the same way that I can flip to the end of a book and see 'whodidit'

this is the view I am trying to show is illogical.

If god know what will happen, everything that will happen.. then I can't see how we can really affect what will happen. I can't see how we have free will.

If god is not omniscient however.. we can have free will.. the future is unwritten, no one knows what will happen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2006 12:26 PM cavediver has responded

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