The Whole Jesus Thing

actually I find that most of the people here that discuss understand very little about apologetics and the history of the church. It doesn't take alot of research to discover that Jesus does not burn you in hell, but rather satan does because it his world now. In a overly simplistic interpretation you have a God that created the world perfect in the beginning without any death, suffering, diseases, ect; and then man sins, therefore choosing through free will to seperate himself from God. What we observe throughout the Bible is a loving God that tries numerous times to get people back on the right track, through different motivations, and then offers a part of himself as "Jesus" as a final attonement for our sin. So, basically the Hebrew text of the OT is a literal account of God's word spoken through his people and His personal walk and mercy given to them from the beginning of time to the very end. So God does not send people to hell, but you send yourself to satan's world, hell. God tries to save you by offering a peice Himself through the salvation of Jesus Christ and you have the free will to choose whether to accept the reality of your situation or not. God does not seperate himself from you but rather you are the product of man which has already seperated himself from God in the garden hince all the suffering, death, struggle and chaos that has insued since. We live in satan's world, you want out accept Jesus's gift of salavation through the belief in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior, aka God. It's actually that easy! Why would God set us up to let us just fail? Why do we let our children grow up and leave the house, drive a car? go to school, or war to possibly be killed? same reason why God did. He doesn't want us to walk around like zombies with no choice and constrained and neither do your children. So at some point and time because you love your children and they want to make their own free will choices in life you will allow them to jump in that car knowing fair well what the statisitics for mortlity are for their age group. So why doesn't God protect us more like some of our parents do by letting us drive around with them and going to training driving courses, oh I would indeed say that he does just that, and has been there for us since the beginning of time guiding us through our lives when we simply ask him for help. Just read throughout the Bible. David, Sam, Noah, Jacob, Isaiah, Jonah. All perfect examples of God's mercy and grace given to man even when we turned against him in every way possible. Heck we even murdered his own son and he still didn't disown us. Now I call that love!

First things first - Paragraphs are our friends!

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actually I find that most of the people here that discuss understand very little about apologetics and the history of the church.

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If I had a dollar for every christian who shows up and makes that claim, I would be a very rich man. This is the general way of things:1) A member of the faithful shows up - makes this claim.2) Member quickly finds out that this is not true - finds that member have a very very strong understanding of the bible.3) Member retreats after his claims are shredded.Let's see if you can do any better.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-03-2004 01:30 PM

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Heck we even murdered his own son and he still didn't disown us.

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But the son was God wasn't he? And God knows all doesn't he, so he would know what would happen?

Welcome to EvC cctman!I hope you have been reading over a number of the threads to get a feel for how things work around here. Be sure to re read the guidelines as well.I'd suggest that people will pay more attention to what you have to say if you make it easier for them to read.Please use paragraphs and put one or two spaces after the period on the end of sentences. That will be a good start to making things more readable.

your assuming that just because you have the capability to do something means that you will, or maybe in this case that just because God could know what would happen means that he would prevent it from happening or even participate in using His power to find out what would happen. After all, that would indeed break the scope of His gift of free will. Furthermore, if you indeed know your Bible then you probably know that this fits well within the doctrine of free will, two subcomponents, God's over all will and his permissive will. Basically we know from the Bible that God is in charge of all things, and yet we also know that he gives us choice to make decisions with that which He has given us. Sounds pretty supportive for this idea of free will to me.And yes the son was God! Need I also explain the trinity too you as well?This message has been edited by cctman, 11-03-2004 01:45 PM

AdminNosy thanks!

I'm not sure where the topic this thread has wandered to.However, I'm pretty sure that it isn't "free will" which has been discussed in other threads. If someone wants to continue that discussion with cctman please take it there.Have a look up and down from this post: Message 97This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-03-2004 01:57 PM

not at all it was a rhetorical question.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-03-2004 01:58 PM

I have taken quite a few courses on bias and interpretation of media content within multimedia. This grabbing topics and moving them sounds kind of dangerous to me. Meaning the seperation of God's word by topic and disection makes the meaning of it skewed due to subjectivity under categorization. God's word is continual and by seperating it by topic, this seperates the meaning of the Bible which if done means that as a christian you can not give an adequate explanation or response.So what qualifies when and at one point a topic can be seperated to a different area? I was directly replying to a comment made here. My reply should not be compartmentalized or divided if it creates a misunderstanding of my orginal explanation.To clarify, Seperating a christian Biblical reply into different content areas skews the meaning of the christians response and should not be allowed.

Of course, a certain amount of wandering around a given topic is to be expected.However any major digressions which appear to require a lot of specific discussion should be taken to their own thread.If you find this too onerous a requirement cctman then perhaps this isn't the place for you.

Hi Cctman,You wrote: Can you elaborate on this statement.

Don't mean to be rude but I'll preempt cctman's answer here.It will be based on the approach :'Good things happen to you because of God/Jesus, bad things happen to you because of you/satan/someone else'

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Well, first off we know that Jesus burning someone in hell would be contrary to every single teaching and Biblical account told of him through the apostles. We know by the chronology according to the apostles that Jesus was sinless and perfect. This being said... we are shown throughout that Bible that satan influences and is tempting man and that since the fall in Genesis in the garden that the world is under the control of Satan and it shows through human suffering, wars, diseases, death, and struggle.

Thanks for your response Cctman.I agree with what you said but would like to add that I further believe that God allowing someone to burn in hell for eternity would be contrary to the the Biblical account and teachings of God.

well, I have heard this as you have probably heard as well. "How can God allow people to burn in hell for eternity? Is this loving? ..."I would say that God is limited and can not do everything based on His identity. Meaning he is defined and limited by His characteritics. He can not lie, steal, cheat, or do anything that is described as contrary to His nature in the Bible. There fore if he indeed gave free will to man, permisive free will within his over all will. that he is bound by that obligation and can not do anything that would put himself in direct contrast to whom He is.We unfortunately are allowed to murder, torcher, pillage and God chooses not stop those things to preserve His true nature or He would no longer fit the description or be who He is which is perfect as described by the characterisitcs defined in the Bible.So, if man decided to sin and seperate himself from God, God can only do what He mandated or is allowed within His power to do for us within the Bible. I'm not saying that God is necessarily unable to do those things and save everyone, but that God must work within what he has created. And if he were to take back free will, that would describe Him as unjust, untrue less than perfect and His word would definately not be preserved as absolute.Do I think God can save everyone? Yes! and He has the power too, but he restricts Himself based on who He is. So in a since He is indeed limited. He must be honest, have integrity, love, as well as be defined by His primary chars. as ominpotent and omnipresent.God is limited by His nature! After all it makes since if He is absolute good.