Believing it is not proving it

Well let's see if it get's promoted and what get's promoted. It's your PNT, so let's see what you do to get it promoted in the format you want. You're the originator.If the OP had been promoted it would have been the shortest thread in history. My answer would have been yes and I don't know. End of discussion that I can see.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Randman, I have no intention of letting you simply wander back to square one after having invested many hours explaining my position on that subject to you. This has been hashed over completely.I will not allow you in addition to change the subject, to once again try to move the Goal Posts.The record is clear for all to read.In your proposed PNT the Op says: Note no mention of ID and that I have fully answered BOTH of the questions you raised in the OP of your PNT.I have also responded fully to your ideas on ID and in fact, IIRC you finally admitted that you agreed with my position.The audience can read that debate here. The record is clear and present for all to read.So your new PNT has been answered fully and your comments on ID have been answered fully.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I even gave you a link to the thread.Like I said, I'm old, may be forgetful, but that was what I recalled. And I may well be wrong.But randman, I have never tried to convince you of anything. Instead, what I do is outline the best arguments for my position. I assume that you try to do the same. The audience can then read the threads and make a decision about who best supported their position.But if you want to rehash ID yet again, start yet another thread since it was certainly not a subject of your current PNT.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That seems illogical. To say that a Christian must apply man's morals to GOD is to say that GOD is but a creation of Man. If that is the case, then GOD is not god but just some creation of man.To be a Christian, to believe in GOD regardless of religion, you must first acknowledge that GOD is not a creation of man and thus man's morals cannot be assigned to GOD. Why? Knowing right from wrong is totally unrelated to GOD. It is, in the Christian belief, a gift, charge and responsibility given by GOD but is something totally human. We are charged to try to do right. That seems to be a bunch of unrelated assertions. Let me try to parse it and show some areas that seem to be totally illogical. No, right and wrong are not objective. They are subjective and depend on the exact circumstance of any given incident. Well, Evolution is neither moral or immoral. It is. That's all, it is. Just as a lion eating a zebra is neither right or wrong, Evolution is neither right or wrong. Was it immoral that the dinosaurs died out and only a few evolved into birds? Where those dinosaurs that evolved into birds somehow more moral than those that didn't?Judging Evolution in terms of morality is illogical and infact, meaningless. Well, if you get a chance, read Canticle for Leibowitz. At the end of it there is an interesting discussion on just that subject.But man, if you are a Christian, is not the one to judge GOD. As I said above, to try to judge Evolution as moral or immoral is both illogical and meaningless. I've dealt with that question here at EvC many times. One place to look would be in a discussion I held with Gilgamesh is:Forum: Faith and Belief
Thread: How do we know God is "Good"?
Post #: 49This message has been edited by jar, 04-02-2006 12:07 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, I have many times gone over that issue in great depth. One such example can be found in Message 1.Your example might hold water if you consider the individual products to be the sole goal of some creator. Unfortunately, your example also reduces GOD to nothing more than some theological equivalent of a machine that should be judged on the reliability of the products it stamps out. That is not just illogical, it is anathema to either Christianity or any religion.So once again, IMHO your assertions are illogical and refuted by the evidence.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Why? How can something be judged as moral outside the context of the incident? Where in the Creeds does it say all morals are objective? Where in the Bible does it say all morals are objective?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The rest of Robin's assertion (that he has made todate) are addressed in an exchange between robin and me beginning in Message 140.I will be happy to discuss any others as any of you bring them up, but as it stands now, I feel all he has posted so far have been adequately refuted.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm having a hard time find the post where that happened. Perhaps you can point me to it, as I pointed you towards the exchange that began in Message 140.Or...you can declare victory and retire.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If you are interested there is an exchange between robin and me that begins at Message 140 that deals with several of robins assertions.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with my response or to the post I was responding to. That may be true for those Christians that believe in Original Sin or the Fall or that spend there lives worrying about what will happen after they die. But that's NOT what Christianity is about. Christianity is about living and Love.Love GOD, and love others as you love yourself.It really is as simple as that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It's fine if you believe that. I have no problem with that, the record is here, and all can read it. They can decide who supported their position. Start with Message 140.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar responded to robin and said it was fine if robin held his views.Robin then replies: Robin, that has nothing to do with my post.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You are trying to move the goal posts once again. I pointed that out to you in the message you are replying to.But I don't mind addressing the issue of suffering once again. I've responded about this to you many times before and really wonder if you've bothered reading the links I give you. Begin with the post linked in this POTMThen, if you want, feel free to start a thread on whatever subject you desire and I'll try to discuss it with you.But frankly, so far your posts have been like talking with a two year old. You can't stay on topic, you never acknowledge the posts I make, you simply return to your illogical assertions. Repeating the same old tired claims does not make them right.Go back to the discussion we began in Message 140 and address the locical basis I established.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

ROTFLMAORobin, please go back and look to see who's beliefs that refered too.Have you been drinking again?AbE:So far there has been one person who has never supported ANY of his assertions in this thread, and it ain't me.This message has been edited by jar, 04-02-2006 09:03 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But I am happy to try yet again. An assertion that you have never supported. However it has been countered in this very thread. Evolution is is not cruel. Cruel is human construct. When a lion kills the zebra it is not cruel, it's life. The lion eats. When the lion misses his kill and so starves, it's not cruel, it's life. Life is not cruel, it is. No, that is NOT what I've said. We cannot judge GOD, that is true. But that has nothing to do with morals. What we do have, and what makes us different than other animals is the ability to judge right from wrong.But that applies to us, Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.By the way I also expanded on that subject in a thread with sidelined where I outlined the four ways I believe man is different than the other animals. It might help you to read it. That may be what you belive, and I support your right to believe anything you want, but as I have explained to you before, that is only due to your ignorance of Christianity. The basics of Christianity is to Love GOD, and love others as you love yourself.It really is that simple. TTBOMK you are the only person that has said sin is meaningless. Yes, you often make that assertion but have never supported it. No, subjective means that it depends on the individual circumstances. A totally illogical statement based on fallacies at that. Try reading the Creeds. I've posted them for you many times. And if you want to start a thread on the meaning of Christ in the Christian religion, start one and I'll be glad to discuss it with you. Yet another unsupported assertion. It's also illogical. So far you have failed to address the issue of suffering, but I'll point out a few things.Suffering is a part of life. Without pain there could be no pleasure. There are several types of suffering. There is that which is caused by nature. This might include storms, sickness, accident. The big thing is that GOD has given us four great traits to deal with that type of suffering. I cover these in depth in the thread with sidelined. You can find that thread in Message 1.Then there is suffering that is caused by human action. That is directly addressed by Christianity. Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. But that god is just a creation of your mind, some picyune god of your imagining. It is not the Christian GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion