Author
|
Topic: Believing it is not proving it
|
nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
|
|
Message 21 of 300 (299786)
03-31-2006 10:29 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith 03-30-2006 6:36 PM
|
|
A technical point
Faith writes: That would also be the same violation of logic, as all you are doing is giving jar's illogic in a different form. An oxymoron is a violation of logic, and people certainly may believe things that violate logic, may believe in contradictory things. That is in fact RR's argument, that Jar and others who believe in both evolution and God are believing in a self-contradiction. That is his point. You can't answer it by pointing to the people who believe it. You can only answer it by proving that it is not self-contradictory.
The standard way that logicians prove that premises are not contradictory, is the demonstrate the existence of something that satisfies all of the questioned premises. One can deal with "Christian evolutionism" is an oxymoron. by demonstrating the existence of an entity that meets both criteria ("Christian" and "evolutionism"). The important point here, is that the term "Christian" applies to a person, not to a set of beliefs. There is a bit of a grammatical problem with the statement, so I had to interpret it as "Christian evolutionist" is an oxymoron. Perhaps that isn't what Robin intended, but that's the risk of ambiguity.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-30-2006 6:36 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
|
|
Message 24 of 300 (299804)
03-31-2006 11:49 AM
|
Reply to: Message 22 by Heathen 03-31-2006 11:38 AM
|
|
Re: A technical point
Does the term 'Christian' Automatically imply YEC? I wouldn't have thought so.
I agree.
Does the term Evolutionist automatically imply Athiest? Not necessarily.
I agree there, too. It seems you should have been addressing your post to robinrohan, who has a different opinion, or to Faith ( Message 1) who supports Robin.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 22 by Heathen, posted 03-31-2006 11:38 AM | | Heathen has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 25 by Heathen, posted 03-31-2006 11:54 AM | | nwr has not replied |
|
nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
|
|
Message 55 of 300 (299867)
03-31-2006 4:26 PM
|
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith 03-31-2006 4:11 PM
|
|
Re: A technical point
Nobody would ever call a PERSON an oxymoron.
LOL. The "oxymoron" is referring to the phrase, not to what the phrase references.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 44 by Faith, posted 03-31-2006 4:11 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
|
Re: its a big misunderstanding
No, the argument did not change. It's exactly the same as it was originally. When I say that one cannot be a Christian and an evolutionist, I meant, of course, that the two positions are logically incompatible.
There is the basis for the disagreement addressed in this thread. The assertion "one cannot be a Christian and an evolutionist" can be directly refuted by exhibiting an example of someone who is both a Christian and an evolutionist. That's where jar listed himself as that counter example. The assertion "the two positions are logically incompatible" does not require refutation. Rather, it requires logical proof. I'll note only that Robin has failed, after several threads on the topic, to provide such proof. The assertion seems obviously wrong, since the two positions don't seem to address anything in common that could make them logically incompatible.
|
nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
|
Re: I find your position illogical
robinrohan writes: A Christian, logically speaking, must believe in an objective morality.
I'm guessing that you don't have any logical argument to prove this claim, either. If Christians must believe in an objective morality, then one presumes that the old testament sabbath law is part of that objective morality. Yet most Christians believe it does not apply to them.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 142 by robinrohan, posted 04-02-2006 1:13 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
|
Re: Well, nothing in there that has not been addressed by me in this thread.
quote:
Again, you are the only person asserting that we don't know what really is sin. I have consistently said that one of the Gifts from GOD is the ability to tell right from wrong This suggests that morality is objective.
Right and wrong, good and bad are Human Constructs. This suggests that morality is subjective. Make up your mind. If we can tell right from wrong, then morality is not subjective.
That does not add up. Morality can be culturally relative, but you would still know right from wrong by virtue of being part of the culture.
|
nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
|
Re: Well, nothing in there that has not been addressed by me in this thread.
That does not add up. Morality can be culturally relative, but you would still know right from wrong by virtue of being part of the culture. Who says your culture is right?
The question makes no sense.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 210 by robinrohan, posted 04-03-2006 12:29 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
|
Re: The Dilemma
If one is a Christian or Jew or Muslim, one has to believe in an objective morality.
Where are you getting that idea? The golden rule is explicitely subjective. It sets your own subjective view of how you want other to treat you, as the standard by which you should treat others.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 240 by robinrohan, posted 04-03-2006 1:52 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|