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Author | Topic: What exactly is ID? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5143 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:Exactly. The more time passes, the genetic entropy increases. All populations are getting worse, not better. Because theri biological functions are degrading. quote:No, what this simply means is that evolution doesn't work. I think it's clear to anyone,t hat if evolution requires somehting to be produced for it to work, and if it is observed not to be produced, that we are going to conclude that evolution is not working, and not that it is working. quote:Actually, it says the amount is accumulating, not decreasing. quote:How do you know the similar genes are evolved? Aren't you first assuming common descent to be true, to than turn and claim that this is evidence for common descent? Obviously this is circular reasoning. You can't say that similarity is evidence for common descent. Similarity is simply evidence for similarity, nothing more. You need evidence that would show us that their similarity is due to common descent. Not just assume it is from the start.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5143 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:It's not really a case of loss of specific function in this case, as it is a degradation of structure. Which is also a loss of information. A biological function itself does nto have to get damaged every time when structure degrades. But information is lost. And with enough degradation of teh structure, the function itself will degrade.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5143 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:No, you are missing the point. Fine tuning of already existing mechanisms is not gain in information. It's a simply tuning in of what already exists. And as I already said. An information, to be called CSI has got to have the complexity of at least 400 bits. One mutation is not 400 bits. Therefore, such changes do not equal increase in CSI. quote:What's "free" information value? quote:Nope. I said many times that it does not have constitute a loss of information. Mechanisms inside the cell can modify the DNA and leave it with the same amount of information as before. Random mutations can do the same. But do not on average. On average, they decrease the information. But no, not every single time. Imagine a statement: "NICE WEATHER WE ARE HAVING TODAY." If a random mutation happened in that statement,we could have something like this: "NIcE WEATHER WE ARE HAVING TODAY." Instead of capital C, we now have a small c. So what? Did the meaning of teh statement change? Nope. But the letter did change. Yet the change did not cause any loss of meaning.
quote:I agree. As I already said above, this is not really the same of loss of functionality per se. But biological function is a subset of a biological structure. If you degrade the structure, you can, but you will not every single time, also degrade the function. If you scratch a mechanism of of your car's ignition, and you do not damage it so ti loses it's function, did you degrade the function? Nope. But you did damage the strucutre of the ignition mechanism. And this mechanism is what is performing the function. Scratch it enough times, you will damage the structure so much, that you will not be able to start your car anymore. And now, as you can clearly see, you have lost the function. Both the structure and teh function have degraded. So like I said, no, you do not degrade the function every time you degrade the structure. But it is still a loss of information. Which when is repeated enough times, does lead to loss of function.
quote:That is actually called a mathematical fact. Any organised system, will on average degrade if it is changed on random. The chances are simply like that, that you have mre chances of you hitting on a high entropy sequence, than a low entropy one. Imagine a simple statement like the one I gave in teh last example. If you make simple changes, letter by letter, on random,, meaning, you do nto see what letters you are changing, are you on average going to decrease it's organization, or increase it? Obviously you will decrease it, which means you will increase it's entropy. Now tell me, why would random changes to the ribosome be any different? Surely they are not. Any random change will on average make the ribosome less organized, not more.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
The more time passes, the genetic entropy increases. All populations are getting worse, not better. Because theri biological functions are degrading.
So in another 3.5 billion years we're in real trouble, eh? Or is it 10 billion years? 20 billion? I'm not about to worry about something that is going to happen in 20 billion years (if then) when the sun will consume the earth in a quarter that time. You keep making these claims but you have yet to quantify "genetic entropy" in terms that mean anything. Nor are you able to support it from mainstream science. When the only support for an extreme claim is from a scientist who is also a fundamentalist or a creationist, I tend to want a second opinion. And you have yet to convince me that your "belief" in genetic entropy is based on something from science and not biblical literalism, i.e. the fall and a young earth. Belief in those two concepts would certainly alter your perception of reality and contribute to your contra-scientific faith in this genetic entropy. What is this, the third or fourth concept that you have pushed here -- all the while claiming they are based on science -- when mainstream science says the exact opposite and the only real source that agrees with you is the bible? Are we in for a thread on a flat earth or pi=3 next? How about the flood? Let's do the flood next -- that is one area I have some good data to share with you. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Yes, we do. We see them in ALL species. Cite an example then, please
No. We do not know how much mutations would they have accumulated. To predict real numbers is not possible, simply because we do not know what was the initial population size. Why would we need to know the initial population size? I'm talking about in a single gene line - as in those descended from a single individual.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I am afraid that you are incorrect again. You claimed that it had lost all function. I claimed that you did not know that. And as we have seen I was right, although it took an amazingly long series of posts for you to realise it.
quote: Amazingly enough your clumsy phrasing has made you say something that is about right, although probably unintentionally. For your calculation to be correct, the E Coli flagellum (plus any allowed variants) must include all "bidirectional rotary motor-driven propellers". And in that sense it would describe it. However, we are certainly in no position to say that that is true, and in fact I know that it is not true. You are also correct to say that "bidirectional rotary motor-driven propellers" is a valid specification, because there are other things that fit the definition. Unfortunately this means that all those things must be included in D*. And since your calculation uses specifics of the E Coli flagellum that do not necessarily apply to all "bidirectional rotary motor-driven propellers" you are calculating the probability for a different "specification" - and in fact that "specification" is a fabrication.
quote: I've told you what to do. Calculate the number of sequences that are no more than 20% different. If you can't even work out how to do that then you don't know even basic probability theory. I might be willing to help you a little more, but to do that sensibly you will need to explain how you did the calculation in the first place. Something you were unwilling to do before.
quote: I am afraid that you have completely misunderstood what Dembski is saying here. Dembski is attempting to deal with the issue that there are many more possible targets that evolution might have hit. He does so by estimating the number of concepts at the same level and including it as a correcting factor (this is why it reduces the specified information content). Clearly adding in extra details - even if they are legitimate - would mean using a higher level concept, and thus this factor would be increased.
quote: Again, you are making a mistake. My point was that the growth mechanisms have a high probability of producing a flagellum. Of course we can say that bacterial reproduction includes producing the physical growth mechanisms with high probability. But again, all this means is that the design proponent has to do is to go back to the origin, which is where you say that the actual design implementation occurred.
quote: Of course the point rests not on what MIGHT be the case in some hypothetical environment but on what actually is the case in the environments which actually exist. And in that environment, the allele for blue eyes is classified as neutral and the sickle cell allele is classed as beneficial overall (in malarial areas), but is very strongly deleterious in individuals who are homozygous for the allele. And that is unusual.
quote: In other words it doesn't matter if what you say is true or not ? If you really don't care about then say so. You claimed that the sickle-cell allele was spreading. You claimed that it had been fixed in the population. Neither is true.
quote: That isn't quite true. Your argument is intended to establish what you think will happen to large populations over long periods of time but it doesn't take either point into account. If the other factors are hereditary then they may be included with genes. If they are not then - on the scales we are thinking of - they may be largely ignored unless there is good reason to think that they strongly correlate with the occurrence of a particular allele. You see, the larger the population (in the statistical sense as well as the biological) the more the chance effects of noise tend to average out. This is why genetic drift is weaker in larger populations. So it is not enough to talk about individual cases or noise. What you need to show is that there is a systematic bias - and that that bias undermines selection to the point that mutational meltdown is inevitable.
quote: In other words you claim that an increase in fitness is caused by an inevitable decline in fitness. That doesn't make a lot of sense. I say that a sustained increase in fitness shows that the decline is not inevitable, which makes a lot more sense.
quote: It may be an important question, but it is not relevant to either the genetic entropy discussion or the discussion of Dembski's method. I don't intend to add to the problems of this thread by adding a third subject to the discussion. If you want to talk about it then I suggest that you start a new thread. Edited by PaulK, : Cleaned up a few typos
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
You missed the entire point. You claim that the specific binding between streptomycin and the ribosome is due to CSI in the ribosomal sequences. So why is specific binding between antibodies and the epitopes they bind not due to CSI in the sequences which code for that epitope? Did you quickly evaluate the bits required for all possible epitopes and determine that they were all under 400 bits?
The 'free' information, as I have pointed out more than once now, is the information which has to have suddenly magically been added to the coding sequence for the ribosome when the full streptomycin synthesis pathway had developed and it suddenly had a high affinity binding partner. You say you don't claim mutations are necessarily a loss of information, but you persist with your illogical claim that it is a loss of information in the streptomycin resistance example. Can we just agree that its not a net change in information? Would you go that far? To claim that any change in structure is a 'degradation' is bringing front and centre your assumption that the initial structure is some sort of optimal or ideal structure. It is totally inconsequential to the effect of any particular mutation that if you keep on changing the structure long enough at random its function will disappear. Nice to see your basic understanding of entropy is as faulty as your concept of genetic entropy. You have, as usual, conflated any specific change with the average tendency of all random changes. The fact that in general non-neutral mutations will tend to have a deleterious effect on a proteins function doesn't mean that beneficial mutations don't exist. You do understand that entropy is a statistical phenomenon? Going from the general to the specific as you do totally defeats the entire point of this discussion. TTFN, WK
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Tanndarr Member (Idle past 5211 days) Posts: 68 Joined: |
You are also correct to say that "bidirectional rotary motor-driven propellers" is a valid specification, because there are other things that fit the definition. Unfortunately this means that all those things must be included in D*. And since your calculation uses specifics of the E Coli flagellum that do not necessarily apply to all "bidirectional rotary motor-driven propellers" you are calculating the probability for a different "specification" - and in fact that "specification" is a fabrication. Dembski's specification also relies on a redundancy which shows just how easy it is to twitch the concept to make it say what you want. A propeller is a device which converts rotary motion into thrust. Rotary is implied in the specification propeller and should be removed from the description. Dembski himself refuses to defend his flagellum argument. He's not interested in "materialistic" applications. I'm sure it has nothing to do with his fear of public ridicule. Better to sit on the sidelines and let the second-stringers get sacked.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Creationism is not a mechanism. How exactly is creationism supposed to be a mechanism? No, magic is the mechanism for creationism. Just like it's apparently the mechanism for ID. Which is appropriate, because even Dembski admits that ID is Creationism.
I'm claiming to have a method of design detection. And when I apply it, you claim that I can't use it because that's "creationism". No, what I am saying is that your method does not differentiate between things which were designed and things which were not designed. We've given you a number of examples of things which we all agree are not designed - geodes, snowflakes, ripples on water, etc. The _only_ way you rule them out is by knowing the mechanism for their production. Yet, you claim that you don't NEED to know the mechanism for your ID theory because you can detect it without knowing the mechanism. My position is that if you do not know the mechanism, you can not claim design. You position is the opposite. I've asked you for an example APART FROM the one you are claiming to DEMONSTRATE that your claim has validity. You've now admitted that there are NO EXAMPLES apart from what you are claiming. That's SPECIAL PLEADING. It's an invalid argument to come to us and tell us you have a method of design detection which ONLY WORKS on Creationism and therefore you don't have to show how it works.
Change over time caused by what? Random mutations, or intelligent input? Obviously intelligent input. It's amazing to all of us that you see "intelligent input" everywhere in nature, but can't seem to manage to apply any here. You can not determine "input" if you don't have a MECHANISM for that input to take place. If you would grow some balls and just admit that your mechanism is magical Jew Beams shot from the Great Wizard, we could move on to the next part of this discussion. Until you do, I'm afraid I'm going to have to keep asking you the same question and you're gonna have to keep pretending that you are too stupid to understand it.
Dembski explained this perfectly What Dembski explained perfectly is that the Fundamentalist Christian God is responsible through the use of MAGIC for Creation AS IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE, __INCLUDING__ ADAM & EVE!!! You can't keep siting Dembski _AND_ claiming that you don't believe that it's magical Jew Beams. Those are two different arguments.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Okay, I don't really care why this is. My point is simply that it's happening. It's causing genetic entropy. Then all you are doing is calling a restricted gene pool (as a result of a small population) 'genetic entropy'. Like what happens to inbred Southern folks. This would then (logically) not apply to large population. Large population= no 'genetic entropy'. I'm also a bit confused by your use of the term 'genetic entropy': surely it means more genetic variation? Why are you using the opposite definition? Edited by Larni, : Clarity
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5143 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:This article talks about accumulation of mutations in RNA chains. Accumulation of Deleterious Mutations in Small Abiotic Populations of RNA - PMC This one compare the accumulation of slightly deleterious mutations between small and large mammals. Just a moment...
quote:Becasue the size of the population is one of the factors that determines how much mutations will accumulate. If you do not know the initial size, than you also do not know how much mutations will accumulate.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5143 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:That is because it had ONE known function. We will not try to imagine new functions if we are not sure the enzyme has it, now will we? That's unproductive. We know it had ONE function, and it lost that one function, therefore, it lost all functions. But that's besides the point. Even if it had more function, which I wouldn't be surprised it did, that still doesn't refute my point that it lost a known function. Which, I repeat was the point of the experiment. The experiment was to see how many mutations can an enzyme take befroe it loses it's ONE known function.
quote:You simply do not understand the desgin inference. Why would I have to include ALL existing "bidirectional rotary motor-driven propellers"? That makes no sense. The reason it doesn't make any sense is becasue some patterns that might fit that description could very well be under 400 bits of information. Therefore making our calculation useless in the first place. Why? Becasue we are than not talking about somplex specified information, but simply about specified information, which Dembski said, chance can generate. Therefore, you are wrong. Weare only supposed to include the complexity of the event E, which in this case is the 50 proteins of the flagellum. There is no reason to calcualte other probabilities. Just imagine a "bidirectional rotary motor-driven propeller" that has a complexity of 1.000.000.000 bits. You do understand that it has a chance vastly less probable to form by chance than a one consisting of 1.000 bits? So what good would it do to calculate all possible instances of that pattern? Absolutly no good whatsoever.
quote:Like I said, I'm waiting for you to tell me how to do the calculation. I have no reason to stall. quote:Again, no, you have no idea What Dembski is talking about. Yes, he is saying that evolution can hit many targets. The point is to show that the probability is still to small for that to happen. Like I said "bidirectional rotary motor-driven propeller" is a 4-concept pattern. Every pattern has 10^5 possible patterns. Therefore, the full complexity is 10^20. Now how do we use this? Well simple. We have to show that this pattern is still too improbable to hit by chance. Therefore, we multiply it by 10^120, than with teh complexity of the certain pattern, and that if this number is less than 1/2. Which is true, becasue Dembski says it here.
quote: quote:Therefore, the number we get, if it is smaller than 1/2, it is less likely than not that chnce produced the event in question. Which mens we infer design. quote:Impossible and useless. We can not go back in time. That's obvious. And it's also useless, because natural causes can only transmit CSI, and not add more of it. So whatever CSI we see in nature, we know that that same amount, or more, was inputted in the first place. Therefore, it's fine to calculate it right there. quote:No it's not unusual. That's how natural selection works! It is going to select anything, even those mutations that degrade biological functions if they increase reproductive fitness. That's just how things are. quote:I said that it has bee spread and it's fixed in a certain population. Just like any other mutation. There is no one single mutation that is sprea through all life on earth. All mutations are held in certain frequencies. quote:No they will not? Why should they be correlated with genetic traits to get passed on? I already gave an example of epigenetic interference. Imagine two individuals A and B. Individual A has a beneficial mutation, and individual B has a deleterious one. Judging only by genetic traits, individual A would get selected by natural selection. But it just so happens that individual B got his DNA methylated. And this changed his phenotype and made it more fit than individual A. Now, judginig by natural selection, the individual B gets selected over individual A. Even thopugh individual B has a deleterious mutation, and individual A, has a beneficial mutation. Therefore, we see here that a non-genetic trait interfeered with positive seletion, and a genetically less fitter individual got selected for by natural selection. This happens all the time in all populations on average with all individuals. Sometimes more, sometimes less ofcourse.
quote:Yes, because reproductive fitness is not correlated perfectly with biological functions. If an animal loses it's sight, and it always lives in dark areas, it will probably gain reproductive fitness becasue it will not waste it's energy on eyes. quote:I'm sorry but no. This is the ultimate question and the ultimate point of Sanfords book. The point is that if the genome keeps deteriorating, and we saw from Spiegelman's experiment that it does just that, that logically could not have evolved in the first place. If it kept getting shorter, than the first RNA chains didn't evolve into people over a period of 3.6 billion years. And thus showing that evolution doesn't work.And that's what I've been arguing for from the start.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5143 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:Because it's the ribosome which consists of more than 400 bits of information that got it's structure degraded. And like I said, function is a subset of a structure. Deforming the structure, might also deform the function. quote:And when did that happen? quote:Defects are loss of information. Some certain changes are not. But defects are always a loss of information. And yes, I was always saying that not all mutations decrease the amount of information. quote:You do understand that if you mutate anything for long enough that it will lose it's function and ultimately it's structure? You do know that if you hit a bike with a hammer for long enough first you will not be able to ride it anymore, and after a while it won't even be a bike, but a pile of metal. The first loss is the complete loss of function, and the second loss is the complete loss of structure. But, the first loss occured by a partial loss of structure.
quote:That is becasue it's true. Please add random changes to this statement: "SOMEDAY MAYBE YOU'LL LEARN SOMETHING!" Please do add random changes to it, and tell me, over time, will the changes on average, lead to a new meaningful statement, or will they lead to a meaningless statement? And I never, ever in my entire life said that beneficial mutations do not exist. I never said that. I simply said that they can also lead to loss of information, and that they occure far less than other mutations.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5143 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:He never said that. He actually always said it's not creationism. And not only that, but that's besides the point. quote:Nope. first of all, those thing are not designed becasue they do nto have marks of design. Second, I'm not using special pleading, becasue I never claimed that my method only works on creationism. Whatever that is supposed to mean. quote:I simply explained to you that you made a logical fallacy. That is all. You can not show me an instance of intelligent design, and than conflate it with an undirected process.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5143 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:No, what I'm saiyng is that mutations accumulate in all populations. In some populations more in some less. In smaller populations they accumulate more rapidly, and in large populations they accumulate slowly. Which means: Small population = faster increase of genetic entropy.Large population = slower increase of genetic entropy. quote:No, it means the accumulations of mutations in a population over time which leads to the reduction in genetic information becasue natural selection is not able to remove them.
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